michael barbaro
And I feel like, I should probably should have gone left.
speaker
We should probably go to the BQE.
michael barbaro
Yeah.
michael barbaro
May I hug you?
ina garten
Oh, I insist. Oh, I’m so happy to see you, Michael. Thank you so much for coming.
michael barbaro
Well, I want to give you something.
ina garten
Oh, you didn’t have to bring me anything.
michael barbaro
This is a tote and a bottle of what I understand, according to Google —
ina garten
According to Google?
michael barbaro
— is your favorite kind of wine from Burgundy.
ina garten
I love Burgundy. Oh, this is gorgeous. Thank you so much.
michael barbaro
I feel like you’re literally modeling the behavior that we’re going to be talking —
ina garten
That’s totally what I do.
michael barbaro
The hosting begins early here.
Ina, thank you.
ina garten
So happy to see you.
michael barbaro
So I just want to set the table —
ina garten
Yes.
michael barbaro
— for this conversation, as it were. To me, there’s nothing as special as being invited into somebody’s home as you have invited us for a meal, whether it’s a dead, simple backyard barbecue or an elaborate multi-course, sit-down dinner. And it’s always felt to me that good hosting is a kind of magic. And you are such a master of this particular art form, this magic of convening people and making the togetherness feel so special.
ina garten
Well, it’s what I love to do because my whole goal in life is to connect with people I love. And it doesn’t happen easily. When you have that connection, you feel like you’re taking care of people, and they’re taking care of you. And God knows we need that. [LAUGHS]
michael barbaro
Well, where do you think that comes from, that desire to comfort people, to make them feel cared for?
ina garten
Well, in my memoir, I tell the story that my mother was very cold. I think she just wasn’t capable of being warm. So I think I never felt connected to her at all. And —
michael barbaro
At all?
ina garten
At all. At all. I think —
michael barbaro
That’s a pretty stark thing to have to say.
ina garten
Yeah. I think I was really hungry for that in my life. And so that’s what I try and do with my friends. I think entertaining for me is really about bringing people together and making them part of my family.
michael barbaro
Mm-hmm. Well, do you remember the first time that you really hosted on your own?
ina garten
I do.
michael barbaro
Your first party, 20 people.
ina garten
20 people, and they didn’t know each other. And for some reason, I decided I was going to make an omelet for everybody. Now, I barely know how to make an omelet now. I mean, I kind of do, but I certainly didn’t know how to make an omelet then. And what I know now is you have to make them one at a time.
michael barbaro
Yeah.
ina garten
So I spent the entire time in the kitchen making omelets. So poor Jeffrey was in the living room with 20 people, trying to keep the conversation going.
michael barbaro
Well, how did it play out? So you’re in the kitchen, you’re making omelets. You’re recognizing this isn’t going super well.
ina garten
This isn’t going well.
michael barbaro
So it was bad?
ina garten
It was bad. It was really bad.
michael barbaro
Could you feel it? Was it tangible?
ina garten
I think I was so busy making omelets, I didn’t even think about it until afterwards. And I knew. It was a quiet party. And with 20 people, you can’t connect with them.
michael barbaro
Mm-hmm. But you keep at it, quite obviously.
ina garten
Quite obviously.
michael barbaro
So what does it look like for you to grow into a more confident, less omelet-centric host?
ina garten
I think by the time Jeffrey and I got to Washington, I had been to France, and I was really interested in the food. And I started working my way through Julia Child’s “Mastering the Art of French Cooking.” And so my first parties were very elaborate affairs. It was fancy food. And so I picked the most complicated things, which is how I taught myself how to cook. So I’m glad I did.
And then one day, we were invited to somebody’s house for dinner. It was a guy. And I said to Jeffrey, oh, this is going to be a disaster because no men cooked in the ‘70s. I mean, they just didn’t. And we went there, and he served a simple fillet of beef that was roasted, simple vegetables. It was an absolutely simple, elegant meal. And I remember thinking to myself, this is it. Everybody had a wonderful time. His hair wasn’t on fire.
michael barbaro
He wasn’t cooking from Julia Childs.
ina garten
He wasn’t making some elaborate thing. And at that moment, I decided to change how I cook.
michael barbaro
Hmm.
ina garten
And so the thing that I expected to be a disastrous dinner turned out to be a lesson I’ll never forget.
michael barbaro
The lesson being that cooking is part of hosting, but it is not the totality.
ina garten
And the simpler the meal is, the more fun everybody has. The irony is it’s not about impressing your guests with a great dinner. It’s about making a dinner that’s perfectly delicious that allows everybody to have a good time together.
michael barbaro
Right.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Well, so let’s get kind of clinical here and talk about how all of this works, because it’s not every day we get to pick the brain of the Barefoot Contessa. And it’s really only once a year that I think so many of us are really focused on the act of really hosting, which is Thanksgiving. So just talk us through the elements of a good meal, a good dinner party. What’s essential/? What’s not? Let’s allow ourselves to go rather deep on this subject in a way we normally might not otherwise.
ina garten
So I was interviewing Frank Bruni, who I just adore. And I said to him, what’s the key to a great restaurant?
michael barbaro
Our colleague, mm-hmm.
ina garten
And he said, the most important detail is how you’re greeted at the door.
michael barbaro
Hmm.
ina garten
And I thought, that’s exactly true of parties because once you feel like you’re welcome, you’re always going to feel good.
michael barbaro
How much do you think about how much should we be thinking about the group of people that you’re bringing together? Thanksgiving is unique, of course. You don’t always have a choice of who’s in your family and who gets to come, who has to come. But to the extent that you do have a choice, how do you think about combining the right mix of people?
ina garten
Well, first I think about who I want to see, but I also think about who would like to see each other. So people who know each other that don’t see each other and/or who would enjoy each other’s company. Jeffrey and I pretty much choreograph each dinner party. And —
michael barbaro
You sit there and you talk about it. You think about it ahead of time.
ina garten
We totally think about it. And we think about how the party is seated —
michael barbaro
Hmm.
ina garten
— which is really important. So six people around a round table is my ideal dinner party. And inevitably, some people are extroverts, and some people are introverts. So some people are more talkative than others.
So if you think about six people around a dinner table, I always put the most talkative people opposite each other, and the least talkative people opposite each other on the other quadrant, so that if you put the talkative people next to each other, that’s where the party is going to be. And then people can listen that want to listen, and people can talk that want to talk. So and you’d be shocked how too big a table or two people on the same side of the table that are talking can just wreck a perfectly good dinner party.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
michael barbaro
OK, the food. How do you decide what to serve or not to serve? And I’m not just talking about dietary restrictions — which, by the way, always come up — but just the whole question of, what is going to be possible within the time that you have? What’s going to feel the right level of simple, or, if you wanted to, fussy and formal and meeting the occasion?
ina garten
So this is like a New York Times puzzle.
[CHUCKLING]
There are a lot of layers to it. And the first one is I just remember these are my friends, and I want them to be happy. So when I’m doing the menu, the first thing I do is find out — or if I know — figure out what everybody doesn’t like or doesn’t eat. And I want to make one menu that everybody can eat because you never want to be having the roast veal dinner, and this person over there alone by themselves is having pasta. I want everybody to share the same meal. So that’s the first thing.
Then I’ll write down a menu of what I like to make, and then I just start crossing things off. And just go, well, do we really need four vegetables when two would be fine? Cross two off. Do I have to make that peach tart, or can I get it from a bakery? Cross that off. Is it hard to make a first course while the meat is in the oven? Don’t make a first course.
Then I figure out, how am I going to make this meal? Are there four things that need to go in one oven? Or is there one thing that’s room temperature, one thing that I can cook on top of the stove, and one thing in the oven, so that I’m not trying to juggle things while it’s happening? And then the last thing I do is make a timeline. How is this meal going to happen?
michael barbaro
I feel like I feel like I’m at NASA Command Center.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: It is like that. And I think people are shocked that when I have six people for dinner, I do this. Because otherwise all day, I’m like, oh, my god, should I start the dinner? And then I look at my schedule, and I say, 5 o’clock, I have to turn the oven on. It’s literally that detailed. 5:15, put the meat in the oven. 5:45, take it out. It’s really detailed. But then I know that before 5 o’clock, I’m fine. I can relax.
And it’s hard. It’s a complicated thing to get everything out on the table at the same time when it’s perfectly cooked. And that’s the only way I know how to do it is to make a schedule.
michael barbaro
OK, so now that we’ve talked about the food, the table. What’s on the table? So let’s talk about levels of how much we’re supposed to even care about this. I care about it.
ina garten
And it’s important.
michael barbaro
My mother and I have been fighting for as long as I can remember about whether it’s OK to use paper or plastic plates. How do you set the table? And how much fuss do you put into it? And why does it even matter?
ina garten
Well, first, I would say paper and plastic are nice for a picnic on a boat, but I’m not sure that they belong on a table.
michael barbaro
I knew it!
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: So that should settle that.
I think the table should be lovely, but I really like a modern table that’s simple. I think there’s nothing more horrifying than sitting down to a really fancy dinner table where there are six glasses at each place setting, and you know you’re going to be there forever because there are six courses, each with a different wine.
michael barbaro
Right.
ina garten
So —
michael barbaro
Or a different fork or even knife.
ina garten
Oh, my god. It’s just horrible.
michael barbaro
So modern simply means as simple as possible.
ina garten
As simple as possible. But it can still be beautiful. And I use the same things over and over again. I like really good napkins, good linen napkins. I have a wine glass, a water glass, a dinner plate, tableware. And that’s the table setting. And then what I like to do is I have garden flowers from the flower shop or from my garden. If you do little vases filled with flowers in the same color palette as the napkin, then it all feels coordinated. And you can move those vases around until they look great.
I think things that are fancy are actually meant to impress, rather than make people feel comfortable. And I feel that way about food. I feel that way about table settings. If, for the holidays, you don’t have enough chairs of one kind of chair —
michael barbaro
Who cares?
ina garten
— then who cares? It’s fun. Just put chairs around the table. If you only have six white dishes in one pattern, and you have six white dishes in another pattern, just mix them all up. And I think that makes something feel simple and elegant and fun, which is, at the end of the day, just want your friends to be there.
michael barbaro
Right. Everything we’re talking about here is really just a tool to bring people together. It doesn’t really matter which tool we use.
ina garten
Exactly.
michael barbaro
OK. Once the dinner is underway — the food is out — the conversation is going — I have to imagine once in a while, in this line of business you’re in, you run into the problem of a guest, a relative, a problem person. And how do you deal with that? I’m thinking of my family. I’m thinking about an uncle of mine.
ina garten
We must have the same uncle, [LAUGHS]: the disruptor.
michael barbaro
The dominator.
ina garten
Oh, the dominator.
michael barbaro
Yeah.
ina garten
Yeah.
michael barbaro
What do you do? You don’t do anything?
ina garten
That’s pretty hard to think of what to do, except to invite them to come join you in the kitchen and say, this isn’t OK. But how do you do that? It’s very hard to do. And probably everybody would like to do it. I mean, I try and change the subject.
michael barbaro
I try to change the subject.
ina garten
Yeah. I think that’s the only thing you can do. And I think everybody’s so grateful that you do.
michael barbaro
[CHUCKLES]: At this point, I think some of our listeners might be thinking to themselves, serve the food already, Michael. Be done with it, Ina. This is not how I think about dinner. You guys are overthinking the whole thing. Are we overthinking these details, you and I?
ina garten
I don’t think so. And I think it’s really important.
michael barbaro
Right.
ina garten
And I think it’s a skill. You get better and better at hosting people. And I mean, you and I obviously find it’s really worth doing because it’s the glue between people.
michael barbaro
I think with that, it might be time for us to think about cooking.
ina garten
Oh, you going to come cook with me?
michael barbaro
Would you do the honors of throwing us to the break?
ina garten
We’ll be right back.
michael barbaro
Bravo.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]:
[MUSIC PLAYING]
michael barbaro
So, Ina, tell us what you have picked for us to cook for the holidays, and why, and how it fits into this conversation we’ve been having about bringing people together in ways that are simple, efficient, and without the host’s hair on fire?
ina garten
[CHUCKLES]: So the first thing is baked Virginia ham. So what I do is I buy a fully cooked, smoked ham, really good quality ham that’s pre-sliced.
michael barbaro
Wow.
ina garten
So you don’t have to slice it at the party. And all I do is make a glaze with five ingredients in it. It goes in a food processor. Put it on the ham, goes in the oven, and it bakes for an hour.
michael barbaro
So all we’re going to have to do is make the glaze.
ina garten
Exactly.
michael barbaro
OK.
ina garten
OK? You ready?
michael barbaro
I am ready.
ina garten
One thing you need to know about me is I follow a recipe exactly. So, 6 cloves of garlic. Are you in charge of garlic?
michael barbaro
I would like to be.
ina garten
Choose your weapon. I’ll get the garlic. I like ordering Michael Barbaro around. [LAUGHS]
michael barbaro
I’m not going to feel judged as I do this because there is really no wrong way to —
ina garten
There’s no wrong way to do it, period.
michael barbaro
Sure there’s a better way.
ina garten
OK, so we need 8 and 1/2 of mango chutney, which is exactly what I have.
michael barbaro
Can you describe this chutney? Because I think that it —
ina garten
Well, it’s mango, but it’s got raisins in it. And it’s chutney, so it’s both sweet and sour. 1/2 a cup of Dijon mustard. I can do that. I’ll just dump it in. 1 cup of light brown sugar. Now we need the zest of one orange.
michael barbaro
I’ve always had a zest in question. Is the zest of an orange or a lemon or a lime simply when you’ve covered all the surface area with one or two goes? Like, how deep do you go into the skin?
ina garten
It’s called the pith, which is the lighter part. And you don’t want any of it because it’s bitter. So you just go absolutely — just the absolute surface where it’s really dark orange or dark lemon. And then we need a quarter of a cup of freshly-squeezed orange juice. I love a juicer.
[JUICER WHIRRING]
michael barbaro
That was a tool I didn’t know I needed.
ina garten
OK, we’re ready to go. So got our food processor. Put the garlic in.
michael barbaro
Garlic in.
ina garten
OK, so just turn the food processor on —
michael barbaro
OK.
ina garten
_-until it’s all puréed. That’‘s good. This is the best way. It’s so good.
michael barbaro
OK, and just describe this. You’re bringing this over to this enormous, amazing, pre-cooked, pre-sliced ham threaded with string.
ina garten
Just to hold it all together.
michael barbaro
Mm-hmm, because it’s pre-sliced.
ina garten
Because it’s pre-sliced. And then we’re going to pour the glaze over it.
michael barbaro
Yeah, this glaze is just like —
ina garten
Did I miss any places?
michael barbaro
This glaze is caressing the ham.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: That’s exactly what it’s doing. And now this whole thing goes in the oven.
michael barbaro
OK, let’s get it in the oven.
ina garten
Get that big baby in.
michael barbaro
All right.
ina garten
OK, so this is what I love about roasting. You put it in the oven, set a timer, and forget about it.
michael barbaro
Mm-hmm.
ina garten
So this is one hour. And in one hour, we’re going to have a delicious ham.
[TIMER TICKING]
michael barbaro
That was stunningly simple.
ina garten
And it feeds 20 people. I mean, it’s really quite extraordinary.
michael barbaro
Yeah. No, it feeds more than that, like 20 to 30. OK, ham is now in the oven.
ina garten
So we need something to drink while the ham bakes, don’t we?
michael barbaro
Do we ever? [MUSIC PLAYING]
ina garten
OK, how about a cranberry martini? So you want to make it with me?
michael barbaro
I would love to make it with you.
ina garten
OK.
michael barbaro
I feel like everyone listening to this wants to know if the giant pandemic martini cup actually exists.
ina garten
Absolutely, it does. Would you like your martini in that glass?
speaker 1
No.
ina garten
I have it right here.
speaker 1
It’s here?
ina garten
It’s here.
michael barbaro
Can I just see it? Oh —
speaker 1
Can you reach it?
michael barbaro
— my word. This is like a — it’s glass?
ina garten
It’s like a bird bath.
It was given to me as a joke, but I mean, I had to use it.
michael barbaro
And there’s two of them.
ina garten
And there are two of them.
speaker 1
They’re like vases.
ina garten
Well, you don’t want to drink that by yourself.
So let’s make that cranberry martini. You’re going to love this. So first thing we need is 3/4 of a cup of cranberry juice. And it’s actually cranberry juice cocktail, so it’s got a little sugar in it. Into the measuring cup it goes.
michael barbaro
3/4 of a cup.
ina garten
1/2 a cup of good vodka.
michael barbaro
Ooh, this is fun. Only this is from the freezer.
ina garten
It’s from the freezer, yeah. A 1/4 of a cup of triple sec.
michael barbaro
Which is a sweet liquid.
ina garten
Orange liqueur. Exactly. That perfectly measured, and then we need a cup of ice.
[ICE CRACKLING]
[CLINKING]
And this is the key to cocktails with ice, is you have to shake it for 30 seconds. And what it does is dilute the cocktail enough so that it’s not like really harsh. So it’s absolutely delicious. So how about you do 30 seconds and I’ll time it?
michael barbaro
OK.
ina garten
Go.
[COCKTAIL SHAKING]
It’s longer than you think. That’s only five seconds. Isn’t that amazing?
michael barbaro
I would give it probably at most 12 seconds.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: That’s 15 seconds.
michael barbaro
Oh, this is a lifetime.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: Doesn’t it seem like more than 30 seconds?
michael barbaro
Yeah. It seems like two days.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: Especially when you’re thirsty. That’s 30 seconds. OK, I’m getting the glasses in the freezer.
michael barbaro
These are beautifully chilled martini glasses to the touch.
ina garten
This is a day to cheer.
michael barbaro
Mm.
That’s really nice.
ina garten
Isn’t that good?
michael barbaro
Yeah.
ina garten
Because you know what I love?
michael barbaro
It has no bite.
ina garten
It has no bite, exactly. But also, the flavors are layered perfectly. And it doesn’t have that hit of vodka, even though you and I know how much is in there. The orange and the cranberry kind of bubble up a little bit. It’s not too sweet, not too tart.
michael barbaro
I think I’m going to have to sell my whole family on this one because it just feels like a perfect Thanksgiving cocktail.
ina garten
Thank you.
michael barbaro
It’s delicious.
[TIMER TICKING]
[TIMER RINGING]
That would be —
ina garten
The ham. Ham’s ready. OK, well, it smells pretty good, doesn’t it?
michael barbaro
It does.
ina garten
That’s the first test. [SNIFFING]
How’s that look?
michael barbaro
I love the way the ham has opened up, and it’s fanning out.
ina garten
Isn’t it? And then so what I like to do is I like to serve it like a slice of ham with a little bit of the glaze from the pan.
michael barbaro
If nobody had told you, I would think that you had been working on this for 24 hours.
ina garten
It’ll be our little secret.
michael barbaro
Of course.
ina garten
And I actually did it.
michael barbaro
And you actually did because you planned ahead.
ina garten
I have to say, this looks really good. Mm.
michael barbaro
It’s really punchy.
ina garten
Isn’t that delicious?
michael barbaro
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can taste the orange zest.
ina garten
But it doesn’t overpower the smoked ham. You still taste — I think it’s really important that the intrinsic flavor of the thing that you’re cooking shines through. And the ingredients just make them taste better, kind of layers of mustard and orange and chutney. Not bad, is it?
No, it really — It’s ham on steroids.
[LAUGHS]:
michael barbaro
It’s really, really good.
ina garten
Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]
Where’s my martini?
michael barbaro
Cranberry.
ina garten
Excuse me. I need to get mine, too.
ina garten
Here’s what else you need to know today.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
michael barbaro
OK, here are the questions. Best cold appetizer that’s ready when your guests walk in.
ina garten
Roasted shrimp cocktail.
michael barbaro
Bread or no bread on the table?
ina garten
It depends on the meal. If it’s not a sandwich, bread on the table.
michael barbaro
Hmm. Your personal preference — pumpkin or apple pie?
– Apple pie. Stuffing or mashed potatoes?
ina garten
I love stuffing, but I make it as bread pudding.
michael barbaro
Hmm.
ina garten
A savory bread pudding.
michael barbaro
Resolve another debate I’ve been having with my mother for years. The blade of the knife must face the interior of the plate — yes or no.
ina garten
100 percent.
michael barbaro
Criminal to have it out the other direction.
ina garten
[LAUGHS]:
michael barbaro
Response that you give to a guest who says, can I help?
ina garten
Absolutely, except washing the dishes.
michael barbaro
And if they insist on helping with the dishes?
ina garten
I insist that they not.
michael barbaro
Are you giving your guests leftovers?
ina garten
I actually do one better than that. I actually make another Thanksgiving dinner.
michael barbaro
I’m sorry, what?
ina garten
When I make Thanksgiving dinner, I make a second one, so that I can cut it up and give it to the guests to take home because everybody wants Thanksgiving dinner sandwiches the next day.
michael barbaro
They do.
ina garten
Turkey and cranberry sauce and mashed potatoes. And it’s really terrible the next day, when you’ve gone to somebody else’s dinner, and you don’t have those things. So I make sure everybody has everything.
michael barbaro
That is hosting at a level I cannot fathom.
ina garten
It’s a PhD in hosting. [LAUGHS]
michael barbaro
Well, on that note, Ina, happy Thanksgiving.
ina garten
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.
michael barbaro
I’m grateful to you. I’m grateful for everything you’ve taught me as a amateur chef. And I’m grateful just to have you in our world.
ina garten
I’m so happy to be here. Thank you.
michael barbaro
Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
I think I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask — where’s Jeffrey?
ina garten
[LAUGHS]: He’s at Yale teaching. And he’s coming home tonight.
michael barbaro
All right. He’s not going to be joining us?
ina garten
No, I’m sorry. Next time.
michael barbaro
No day is perfect.
ina garten
[CHUCKLES]:
[MUSIC PLAYING]