why does my dough have no gluten structure at all? Also my baked loaves have been coming out flat but with nice crumb…
Recipe:
100% bread flour
75% water
2% salt
20% STARTER RR
Dissolved starter and salt into water, then mixed in flour
Waited 20 mins and did rubauds
Then did s+f and a few min of rubauds every 20 mins
This video is 2hrs into BF at 75F (so very early on}
by curlyfacephil
29 Comments
Hard to tell. Might be a weak starter or too much water. Check your scale for accuracy. Try 75%bread flour and 25%whole wheat. Wheat flour will absorb more of the fluids.
thats because of the starter
leave it rest for an hour, do some folds with wet hands, repeat next hour
i use a bread tin, solves that problems
What are your stretch and folds like? Is it more elastic when doing them or the same?
>Dissolved starter and salt into water,
You’re killing your starter.
Add water to starter and mix well. Mix your flour and your salt and add it to the water/starter. The flour will buffer the salt.
By directly salting your starter at the beginning you’re significantly inhibiting your starter and making it really hard for it to actually raise the dough.
What brand of flour are you using? Is it bread flour?
75%hydration based on the flour with a 20%starter will actually yield you a higher final hydration.
For example
500g flour
375g water
100g starter
Assuming a 100%hydration starter, you can add 50 to the numerator and denominator.
425/550 = 77% final hydration. And that 50g of extra flour is already fermented so likely won’t contribute to the structure of the dough much.
If you’re using gold medal bread flour, it will never be able to handle that much water without significant mixing and slap and folds. King Arthur can, and Bob’s Red Mill can. AP flour of any kind will basically fall under the same as the gold medal stuff.
First suggestion: lower your water, I do 60% hydration.
Second: don’t mix the salt directly into the water and starter. Put water, then starter, mix, then flour, then salt, mix.
Starter issue for sure. And perhaps too much water. Start with 65% if you are a beginner
I think your flour cannot handle that water percentage. It’s too high
How old is your starter?
Starter is not ready
what does a mix of water and flour look like after an hour? If it looks the same flour is culprit. Otherwise it can be anything that reddit comments are talking about (salt too early, starter not ready)
Any chance you measure by volume..?
The one time I had an issue like this was when I used my starter that was a little too long after its peak and I also did 75% hydration. Tried again with 65% with a stronger starter and it came out great, then again at 70% with the same result. If your starter is good, try adding a little less water
Is it very sour by this point? If you over ferment, the acid breaks down the gluten proteins and it turns it to slop.
It would also have gotten stickier.
How ripe is your starter? If it’s overripe, it will cause your gluten strength to break down. Also, people are right about salt. Autolyse before you add salt.
I would use way less water.
What is your recipe in grams?
It should not be tearing like that if it rested 20 mins before the first stretch and folds. It suggests that your flour is not handling the amount of water being used.
I would recommend you hydration test your flour. The Bread Code has a video that show you how:
https://youtu.be/s1gM_jziXcI?si=prIh7w_689WTOje5
Seems too wet to me. Maybe try more flour or less water. This has the same consistency as my starter when I go to feed it.
Starter might be too acidic.
This is infuriating. There is a caucophony of voices bringing up starter strength and all manner of things that ***do not cause total gluten breakdown*** (which is what is happening here) with all kinds of upvotes and only like 1 person repeatedly saying the correct thing — regardless of starter strength, if your flour has sufficient protein/strength for the amount of water, it will form long, strong gluten. if it’s falling apart like this, wether with starter or not, it’s the flour and its relation to the water amount.
Acidic starter? Try a dryer starter and higher feed ratio. In cold climates especially you have to be very selective for yeast, they reproduce slow and the acid doesn’t care about temperature and just melts the gluten. It is actually very time sensitive, over proofing is significantly more common for sourdough due to the extra factor.
Do a 1 hour autolyse with flour and water only
So dough has two desirable properties: elasticity and extensibility. They are not polar opposites, but many things that increase one decrease the other. Your dough has no elasticity and is too extensible.
Many starters are up to half water; if that’s the case, you’re rolling 80% hydration. I know you’ll find some recipes online that go this high or higher. In my kitchen, which is 75 degrees F and 50% RH, once I get much above 72% hydration extensibility increases substantially – regardless of my dough’s underlying gluten strength.
Dial back the water to 65% and see how you get along.
There is no gluten development… it is the flour my guy, look at the W number (strengthof flour) which indicates protein content and hence gluten.. Plus looking at the dough’s stickiness, water ratio is too high.. If you let it autolyse, I wonder how it would turn out though
To me, this looks like your flour does not have enough protein. It honestly looks like cake& pastry flour, not bread flour. I would first try swapping your brand of bread flour to see what happens.
So I’ve been experimenting with a stand mixer because being a slave to my sourdough with stretch and folds was killing my libido.
I do 15-20 mins in a stand mixer on low after a 1hour autolyse and then I just put it to bulk ferment for a while before shaping and putting in the fridge over night. Comes out nice. I’ve got an open crumb a couple times. Stretch and folds ruin lives people.
That all goes to say, how wet is your starter? Because it will contribute to the wetness of your bread and will enforce your handling of it.
I only add my salt after the autolise, when the gluten develops. Which means that for an hour, the flour and the water are all alone. Then I add the salt and the starter. This looks like the gluten has not developed.
Beat the hell out of it using the flat beater mixer attachment on the kitchen aid until it forms gluten structure. I honestly don’t understand the hydration stuff. But I made high hydration pizza dough that would not develop gluten when I mixed it with the dough hook and I found a random YouTube video that showed that. If you don’t have a kitchen aid I’ve got nothing.