I have been baking sourdough bread for over 10 years, but over the last year, my bread is flatter and less round than I like. I would love some feedback on what I am missing or doing wrong.
The video shows all the steps and ingredients, and hopefully it makes sense. I though it would be easier to show rather than write a lengthy post, which may not show that I am, for example, shaping it incorrectly or mixing it for too long.
Thanks so much in advance!
by frankdk88
30 Comments
Am I crazy or you skipped the bulk fermentation step completely? Understanding that it probably ferments during your stretch and folds and all the resting but maybe you’re not letting it puff up and increase in size enough after stretch and folds?
Edit: nevermind I just caught that you let it rest 3.5 hours at 30 degrees. You’d think that would do it at that temp. But did you notice an increase in size and was it jiggly etc.? I’ve read some people do bulk fermentation for 8-12 hours but I think that’s when they have a cooler environment.
Try lowering hydration, flour is a natural product and subject to weather changes. Maybe there’s less gluten forming protein in your flour.
I recommend lowering your hydration. That dough looks super wet. Maybe aim for 65-70% hydration and see what happens
Please correct me on the maths if I’m wrong but I get 72 % hydration. Your dough is soup. It’s a puddle on the workbench. At 72 it shouldn’t be anywhere close to this state. If I were to bulk 3,5 hours at 30 C my dough would probably be liquid.
Edit: Sorry, I got interrupted and accidentally hit send. I think you need to do more temperature control and watch your fermentation times. I believe it’s running away from you. Good luck! 💪
I recommend switching gears entirely. Get the book “Flour Water Salt Yeast”, and start with the overnight white bread and go from there.
No bulk fermentation step seems a bit odd like the other commenter mentioned.
1100 flour to 900 water is pretty high hydration too, and your flour might just not be that thirsty for it. Cutting down 100 ml at a time until u get some real good oven spring might be a good call.
Monitor the temp of the dough and bulk ferment using the “Sourdough Journey Bulk Fermentation Guide”
Have you always baked bread this exact same way?
Personally, I prefer to eat higher hydration bread because I like the texture much more, so if you don’t want to adjust the amount of water, I’d try a couple things first.
I’d try your recipe as is without the mixer first. I think you may be mixing for too long. After you mix in your levain into your autolysed dough, it looks much more wet than mine would at a similar hydration level. I find that when I mix with my hand, I have a much better idea of when I’m going overboard or mixing not enough.
I’d also try not sticking it into the oven with such a high temp and using an aliquot
You are the most professional non-professional I have seen doing our shared passion, sourdough bread!
My suggestion:,skip any 30 degree bulking, and/or check temperature in your oven ? Anyway, just let it bulk somewhere else. And when do you do your slap and folds?!?
Edit: typos
30° is too warm for sourdough; you’re over-fermenting. I try to keep mine below 25°. Have you been using this process for 10 years? Great video but I was dying inside, like watching a car crash. It also kills me the way people in this sub say their dud loaves at least taste great when I would have binned them.
Your dough is soup. ~81% hydration dough might work for some “strong bread flours” but it isn’t working for yours. You also need to just do way less with your bread. To develop your dough you’re doing the following:
1. 1 min mix to combine
2. 30 min autolyse
3. 6 minute mix
4. bassinage including 3 min mixing
5. 2 min mix following salt
6. and then after all that you’re doing 7 stretch and folds????????
Simplify your process back to the basics. You don’t need 10000 steps and overhydrated flour to make a good loaf of bread. Using the same flour try the following:
1. 1 min mix to combine
2. 30 min autolyse
3. Skip the bassinage. Your dough definitely doesn’t need another 100g water.
4. add salt and mix for 8 minutes
5. maybe give it a single stretch and fold during the bulk if you have time.
Thats it. Since your dough will be drier you’ll be able to gauge its rise during bulk more accurately. Make sure you’re letting it get close to double before moving on to the shaping. If you’re folding it every 30 minutes it can be hard to guage when that’s occured.
Also as an aside – it would be helpful to include a full list of ingredients and brief description of your process in text. I initially missed the extra 100g of water you added post mix.
I dont think anyone else said but its underfermented. Leave it to bulk longer and preferably at a lower temp to reduce risk of overfermenting
Few things I have noticed
1- you are using filtered water. assuming you are in the UK (M&S flour) , tap water has a lot of chlorine. Try using bottled water (I buy the cheapest one from Tesco’s)
2 – the flour you are using probably doesn’t handle all that water. Reduce the % of water or change to a different flour. Not all flour is the same even if it says “strong bread flour”
3 – you don’t need to add your dough to an oiled recipient. That again adds moisture to the dough.
4 – there’s little to no surface tension on the bread when you are shaping it. That doesn’t cause the issue you are seeing but again shows that probably your dough is too hydrated.
Try doing a loaf with 70% water and also reduce the starter to 10%. See if it improves.
I’m no expert but it looks like you’re adding too much water. I like Grant Bakes good sourdough recipe if you are looking for more consistent crumb. I personally don’t use the oven for proofing because it is too hot. Even the oven light alone takes it to 32 C quickly.
20g starter?
I might be a unicorn because everyone else in the internet makes it so easy and small. I need a minimum of 1.5 cups of starter IN ADDITION TO the normal ingredients.
Try adding at least that amount of starter and see what happens. I’m not saying it’s definitely for the solution, but some of us bread challenged individuals just need that extra boost.
If you don’t have that much starter, add a tablespoon of sugar to what you do have then add 1.5 cups flour and 1.5 cups water and wait at least 2 hours. This is what works for me.
I’m no expert but it looks like you’re adding too much water. I like Grant Bakes good sourdough recipe if you are looking for more consistent crumb. I personally don’t use the oven for proofing because it is too hot. Even the oven light alone takes it to 32 C quickly.
This recipe it’s so complicated. Why so many steps?
Your flour doesn’t have enough protein, you can tell it’s not holding a shape when you pre shape
That’s a lot of water.. I do 1000g bread flour to 750g warm water. 20g of salt and 220g of starter. Bread comes out perfect every time. I let the dough sit in my counter and stretch and fold every hour until dough has doubled and created some bubbles. Then I separate and place in bannetons and place in fridge over night to bake in the morning..
Newbie here but my issue was and maybe yours is a weak starter. I see it’s barely hitting that double and wonder if you’re not giving it enough time to eat all the food before you use it. Also, I’m so new I had to get starter from my daughter so I could have a good experience. My starter died. lol
I think 30 c is too high. I made that mistake when I wanted to “speed up” bulk ferment. It was a pain in the ass getting the liquid goop that was my bulk ferment into a bag.
chiming in to agree with all of the others – you’re losing structure from higher hydration than your flour can handle, and autolyse/dough temperature being too high. 26 degrees C is the ideal.
i would lower hydration to between 70 and 75%, and bulk outside of the oven at a cooler temp.
personally i would also skip the 6 minutes in the mixer – all that agitation can also increase dough temp, especially if you’re adding warm(er) water. the autolyse plus folds every 30 min during bulk have always been enough for me to develop a really strong gluten network.
otherwise your technique looks great!! good luck!
Could you just write out your recipe – just the total flour, water, salt and starter. Someone else has reverse engineered the video and suggested it’s 83% hydration and it looked slack when you poured it out onto the table.
You’ve been doing this 10 years and own the challenger pan – you should just got back to basics and mix 500g white flour, 325g of water, 10g salt and 100g of starter and drop everything else, just mix it all together and get back to basics. All that other stuff you do, it’s just theatre.
1)Too much water…. In final recipe. Should be closer to 600-625ml for 1000g flour (especially until things are mastered)
2) Do NOT put starter in warm oven (30°c / 86°f) hotter temps promote less benificial microbes. Counter top, even if it takes longer is better (24°c / 65°f)
3) Do not proof (bulk ferment) in oven. Counter top.
4) Do NOT let the dough double in size. Go 65-75% rise. (it’ll continue to rise during cold proof on fridge)
5) No second proof.. Shape and place directly into the fridge to cold proof. It’ll take *hours* to get down to temp. I feel your dough is over proofed using current method. Higher hydration also ferments faster.
Bonus, I feel the dough is overworked. 7-8 folds with all that blending seems too much. I’d start doing it all by hand, and personally I just mix the salt on at the beginning.
Hope this helps. Keep trying.
Cut hydration and don’t use oil. No need for that. Only adds to the hydration.
Your loaf has a flat base because
A: your dough is looks 85+ hydration,
B: you don’t reshape it before putting it in the oven.
Consider gentle reshaping techniques that don’t knock bubbles out, always right before it goes in the oven.
I personally just tuck it beneath itself with the scraper.
then flour on top
and flour on my hand
and flip the dough into that hand
and dunk it into the cast iron.
then score in the iron with pen knife
and bake.
I usually go 220 for 40-50min, but you’ve got a much better oven.
You folded for 3.5 hours but never let it bulk..
Cut that does to like 3 folds and then let it sit on its own for several hours til it’s ready. How long that is, who knows, but you’ll have to look for the signs of it being done: airy, bubbly, strong, etc
I know some use the oven but for me even with the light on it gets extremely warm. Use an isolated thermometer to cross-check what your temps are, as oven thermostats have a notoriously broad margin of error.
It’s summer, you should be able to leave the dough on the counter and it will rise fine. I have never got a good rise at 30 degrees Celsius, it turns runny so presumably the temperature is working against gluten development somehow (conjecture on my part). For me around 23-25 works well.
I think others have covered the hydration aspect.
Love the vintage mixer – I have a similar one, maybe slightly older, from my grandmother. It’s built like a tank!
I’m surprised it even got that much rise considering how quickly it melted back into itself when you were handling it to be honest. I think high heat fermentation AND high hydration dough is just really hard to work with from my experience. I basically only do 20+ hour fermentation loaves now though so haven’t tried what you’re doing in a while.
You’re getting good advice on here. White bread flour, filtered water, levain, salt, 70% hydration max. Autolyse at room temp 30 minutes. Stretch and fold X3. Bulk rise to double in size. Shape. Cold proof overnight. You can use ChatGPT or Grok to give you the ratios for the right hydration. Forget all that other stuff. Grant Bakes has a great video as does Maurizio at The Perfect Loaf. Good luck!