Sage with Maia Toll + Crispy Fried Sage Recipe

This was a really fun interview for me as today’s guest, Maia Toll, touched on many themes that are important to my own life, like nature connection and working with medicinal plants daily, both as food and simply as a part of life. She also shared interesting back stories on what her book writing process has been like. And, of course, we talked about sage (Salvia officinalis)!

So, when might you reach for sage? Just to name a few…

► A cup of sage tea can be just the thing on one of those raw, damp days when the cold gets into your bones

► Sage honey can be powerfully healing and soothing to a sore throat

► When you want a delicious topping for eggs, savory soups, pasta, or just a yummy snack, try Maia’s crispy fried sage leaves. (Don’t forget to download your free, printable recipe card!)

By the end of this episode, you’ll know:

► What it means to invite magic into your life (and what Maia means when she says “magic”)

► How plants tell us about themselves

► How you can foster a daily connection with plants

► Why understanding place is a key to gardening success

► and more…

For those who don’t already know her, Maia Toll is the award-winning author of Letting Magic In, The Night School, and the Wild Wisdom Series. After pursuing an undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan and a master’s at New York University, Maia apprenticed with a traditional healer in Ireland where she spent extensive time studying the growing cycles of plants, the alchemy of medicine making, and the psycho-spiritual aspects of healing. She is the co-owner of the retail store Herbiary, with locations in Asheville, NC and Philadelphia, PA.

I’m thrilled to share our conversation with you today!

— RESOURCES —

► Access your recipe card and the transcript for this episode here: https://www.herbalremediesadvice.org/what-is-sage-used-for.html

► Get Rosalee’s best herbal tips by joining her weekly newsletter: https://bit.ly/3EtBEqe

► Maia’s website: https://maiatoll.com/

► Maia’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maiatoll/

► Maia’s Substack: https://maiatoll.substack.com/

► Maia’s herb shop: https://herbiary.com/

— TIMESTAMPS —

00:00 – Introduction to Maia Toll

03:13 – Letting Magic In

13:33 – How plants communicate

16:31 – The importance of understanding where you’re gardening

17:29 – Maia’s writing journey

24:50 – What stepping into a nature-based way of living did for Maia

26:14 – Working with white sage

29:58 – Learning to appreciate culinary sage

30:53 – Crispy Fried Sage recipe

32:55 – Interacting with herbs companiably

35:16 – Sage is beautiful!

40:20 – Other ways Maia works with sage

42:40 – Herbal foot baths and other self-care

45:17 – Herbiary and The Wild Wisdom Series

53:32 – The Night School

59:50 – What Maia has in her herbal first aid kit

1:08:26 – Herbal tidbit

— DISCLAIMER —

The herbal and plant information in this video is for educational purposes only. The information contained is not intended as a substitute for the advice provided by your physician or other medical professional. If you have or suspect that you have a serious health problem, promptly contact your health care provider. Always consult with a health care practitioner before using any herbal remedy or food, especially if you are pregnant, nursing, or have a medical condition.

I learned that it was incredibly drying and I think that that’s part of why I   avoided it for a long time, but I don’t find in cooking with it that it has   that ridiculous potency. In tincture, yes, but in culinary form I think it’s  

Lovely. Hello and welcome to the Herbs with   Rosalee Podcast, a show exploring how herbs heal as medicine, as food and   through nature connection. I’m your host, Rosalee de la Forêt. I created  

This YouTube Channel to share trusted herbal wisdom so that you can   get the best results when relying on herbs for your health. I love   offering up practical knowledge to help you dive deeper into the world  

Of medicinal plants and seasonal living. Each episode of the Herbs with Rosalee   Podcast is shared on YouTube, as well as your favorite podcast app.   Transcripts and recipes for each episode can be found at   herbswithrosaleepodcast.com or through the link in the video description.  

Also, in the video description you’ll find other helpful resources. For   example, to get my best herbal tips as well as fun bonuses, be sure to   sign up for my weekly herbal newsletter. Okay, grab your cup of  

Tea and let’s dive in. Well, if I were to sum up Maia in   one word it would be “impressive,” and that’s because I’m always   impressed with her whether it’s when I’m reading her fabulous  

Books or having conversations like these. This was a really fun   interview for me as Maia touched on many things that are important   in my own life, like nature connection, working with medicinal  

Plants daily as food and simply as a part of life, as well as   interesting backstories on what her book writing process has been   like. For those of you who don’t already   know her, Maia Toll is the award-winning author of Letting  

Magic In, The Night School and the Wild Wisdom series. After pursuing   an undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan and a   Master’s at New York University, Maia apprenticed with a traditional   healer in Ireland where she spent extensive time studying the growing  

Cycles of plants, the alchemy of medicine making and the   psycho-spiritual aspects of healing. She’s the co-owner of the retail   store, Herbiary, with locations in Asheville, North Carolina and   Philadelphia. Keep up with Maia’s writing on her Substack, Unkempt,  

And find her online at maiatoll.com. Welcome back to the Herbs with   Rosalee Podcast, Maia. I am so glad to be back with you,   Rosalee.     Oh, likewise! I’m really looking forward to catching up because it’s  

Been awhile you were on all the way back in Season 2 talking about thyme.   Now, you’re here talking about another favorite culinary herb which   I’m excited to get into, but we have some other stuff first. I’m excited  

To have you back on because it’s been awhile. Usually, in the podcast,   this is where I ask you about what’s your journey and how has the plants   brought you to us today. You’ve shared that with us in the Season 2,  

Which I highly recommend everybody give a listen to about thyme. Also,   just this year, a few months ago, you published your memoirs, Letting   Magic In. I’d like to start there with your memoirs and even maybe  

Start preemptively of what does magic mean to you, Maia.   It’s interesting. I started recently a little back and forth with a writer   in England. We both have Substack, so we’re doing this exchange where  

We’re talking about magic. She’s a photographer and she does a lot of   photographs that are like deep fog, like things emerging from the mist.   For her, magic is this edge of mystery, this liminal space. It’s  

Been really interesting having this back and forth because I had been   using this word for—I don’t know—a dozen years without ever super   clearly defining it. I just was like, “Okay, I need a word for this feeling  

That life is kind of enchanted and that we have connections beyond   ourselves, that we’re not just solo in our human body and can’t touch   outside of ourselves.” So, I started using the word “magic” and it wasn’t  

Well thought out perhaps. I actually was on a radio show when the memoir   came out. The woman went riffing off on this whole thing about the   magic shop down the street from her, and I finally realized that she was  

Talking about card tricks. I was like, “Okay, hold on a sec. That’s   not what I mean by magic.” I go back over and over again to a   quote from E.M. Forster, who probably most famously, for people who don’t  

Read his books but see movies, A Room with a View is something that he   wrote. My favorite book by him is called Howards End. The epigraph in   the beginning of the book is “Only connect.” I’ve read this when I was  

16 in Lit class in high school. That idea of connection and how do we   connect, how do we find connection, has really been a driving force in   my life. I would say particularly with my work with the plants it’s  

How do we find connection? First, human to plant, but then how do I,   as a human, introduce this plant to another human? How do I pass   that connection along? Pass that thread along?  

For me, magic has to do with this idea of connection. I feel like once   we can quiet the human voices in our lives, once we can quiet our own   humanity and need to be a part of human culture, and start listening  

To the world around us, it’s so rich and so vibrant. There are ways of   connecting with it. Once you connect with it, first of all, you feel   differently in yourself, but you also begin to be able to sense larger  

Patterns because you’re plugged in. It’s like you have your finger in   the socket. To me, that’s magic. When we have these little moments   I think we commonly label “magical,” there’s this I’m starting to see  

What this conversation I’m having with this other writer, that the   people who are doing the “slow living” and the   paying-attention-to-the-world-around-you, that’s one end of this kind of magical   continuum because that’s the beginning of noticing the weft and the weave of  

What’s going on in the world around you. The more you pay attention and the more   you step into the flow and feel how things are moving, and then move them   intentionally—which is what plant medicine is, you’re taking the energy  

Of a plant and you’re moving it intentionally into a person—then we   begin to participate in the magic that already exists in the world.   We’re part of the weaving. That’s the best I can do today.  

That’s lovely. So many things that you’ve just brought up are such big   themes in my life right now, so my mind’s like “woo woo woo!” All these   areas lighting up. One thing it makes me think about is how in the past  

Several years I’ve began intentionally walking. There’s this different   experience of going on a walk and thinking about a To Do List or   thinking about steps or thinking about heart rates or whatever. This  

Different experience of going on a walk and hearing the squirrel alarm   call, somebody in the forest visiting a favorite tree that they visit all   the time, noticing the different scents in the air. Right now,  

Ceanothus is this incredible scent that’s permeating the air; noticing   the mushrooms that are popping up. Those experiences become magical   things – really in tune with the senses, slower, really noticing  

The world and also feeling a part of the world. Like you said, it’s   participating. It’s not just being an observer, but being able to   participate in all of that in whatever way, shape and form, which  

For me is often nibbling on some rosehips along the way or the   elderberries that are ripe right now, etc.   It’s just a different experience. Do I always go out and never think  

About my heart rate and the pace I’m going? That sort of thing and   my To Do List? No. Sometimes there are just those days, but I would   say those other days are the magical days and there are the days  

That deeply resonate. That’s something it makes me think about.   It also makes me think about my steps as an herbalist. I luckily   had that magical inroad when I first started, but I also had  

More of a—there’s an exciting time as an herbalist where you’re like,   “Oh, my gosh! Herbs can do that? It’s so exciting!” Even the   simplest things like, “Ginger can help with my nausea?” and it  

Becomes almost this, “Let’s figure out all of these things that herbs   can do.” I think it’s very easy if we are intentional that we can get   stuck in herbs as pharmacy and herbs for XYZ, which is interesting.  

I don’t want to poo-poo it. It’s interesting. It’s one way that   people are grabbed into herbs, but it’s this intentionality and   connection that you’re speaking to that brings the magic there.  

It changes everything. First of all, I have to tell you this because this   is just such an incredible, magical moment for me and I don’t know if   you’ve had this experience, so I want to point it out to you in case you  

Have an opportunity. I moved into the woods. I’m in the Blue Ridge   Mountains. I’m on 25 acres. We have some protected space and we have a   lot of black cohosh. I was out walking around the garden the other  

Day and I was smelling something that smelled like jasmine. I don’t   have any jasmine! I was like, “What is that smell?” I followed my nose   around. Oh, my goodness! There is some autumn black cohosh scent that   is like jasmine. Interesting!  

I’ve never been around this much black cohosh. I’ve never had this opportunity   before. I just had to point that out in case anyone else has an opportunity   to be around a lot of black cohosh. In the autumn, I haven’t smelled it at  

Any other time of year. It was very strange and very wonderful.   I have a different experience of black cohosh. Not with autumn scented and not   in its native habitat, but I planted black cohosh by my doorway right on the  

Steps leading up to the porch. The flowers, when they bloom in the summer   time, smell like rotten death! I did not know that about black cohosh, but it  

Took me quite a while to figure it out. I would just walk by. There are lots of   plants around, so I’d walk by and it just didn’t even occur to me that a  

Plant would smell like that. I was like, “What is going on? Is there a dead mouse   around? There’s something wrong here.” After a while, I figured out it’s the   black cohosh and I have had so many people come by and—this is not going to  

Make me sound like a very kind person, but maybe a key person who loves to see   people react to things. I invite people to smell. “Aren’t these beautiful?   They’re called ‘fairy wands.’ Give it a smell.” My dad would say cheap  

Entertainment. I’m not the only one who thinks it smells like death, but again,   this is not its natural habitat and it’s in the summer. Now, I’m curious because   jasmine is one of my favorite scents and I promise you that is not the smell  

Coming off my black cohosh in the summer. Okay, this is fascinating because—have   you ever smelled magnolia when it’s at the end of its bloom? Because it will   start to smell rotten. You’ll start to smell kind of like an undercurrent of  

Death. I’m wondering if we’re talking about the range of the same scent?   That’s interesting. We need other people to chime in on this.   If you’re out there and you have smelled black cohosh, we need you to let us know.  

In what stage? Where was it located? We need specifics here.   That’s crazy. Okay. You know what? This is, to me, the joy of herbalism. I spend   a lot of time. I studied with David Winston, so trust me I spent a lot of  

Time memorizing chemical constituents and “This does this and this does that,”   and TCM, Ayurvedic and Native American properties. I’ve done all of that. Your   brain can get very full very fast. It’s these moments of just encountering the  

Plant and smelling jasmine or smelling death to me are so fascinating. I love   thinking about this. What’s it telling you with its death scent? What’s it   saying with its jasmine scent? They’re living beings and they communicate by  

Scent, by touch. They communicate in different ways than we do, so all of this   is information. I’d be so curious how the medicine would be different and how   the subtle energetic layers of the medicine would change depending on what  

Scent profile it’s in. I definitely think the difference between   jasmine and rotten death is not so subtle, so that would be very interesting.   But the thing is here, I’m using the word “energetics” and making it sound like magic,  

But if you think about it, there’s a chemical reason why it’s going to smell   one way or smell the other. It has to do with the soil. It has to do with the time  

Of year. It has to do with how much water. It has to do with nutrients. It will have   a different chemical profile if it has a different scent.   I love that when herbalists get together. I remember many years ago watching an  

Argument between two herbalists from different parts of the country of whether   or not a plant was astringent and to what degree until it was finally, over time,   this was resolved by understanding the plant in one location is very astringent,  

Whereas in this other location it is not. I love that plants cannot be standardized   no matter how hard humans try to do so. It really comes back to that connection   and knowing the actual plants that you’re working with, not even just in a  

General generic sense, but literally the plants that you’re working with–tasting   them, smelling them. Sharing the landscape with them, which to   me that’s such an interesting piece of this. We’re going to get to my herb  

Towards the end of the podcast, but the reason that I chose sage is because we   have voles. We have horrible voles. I have planted the garden twice and they’ve   dug up everything and so I finally researched they don’t like sage and they  

Don’t like alliums, so I now have a garden full of sage and alliums.   It sounds delicious. It’s just such a very different garden   than I would have planted given my druthers, but it’s teaching me so much  

About this particular place and what can survive here. What can survive the   wildlife here? I think that that’s such an interesting piece of the puzzle. We   go straight to the medicine making, but some of the medicine is in the  

Understanding of place, and of interaction, and of connection.   So true, Maia. Let’s go back to your memoir a bit. It’s Letting Magic In.   We’ve talked about what magic may mean. Not card tricks, more about this  

Connection and participation. So, why a memoir? I also guess I just want to say   you are such a prolific writer and you’re such a beautiful writer. Your   prose is just so stunning and I know that your book has received very high  

Praise for the writing in general, but also for the journey that you take us   all on. I want to hear from you about it all.   This is the book I’ve been trying to write since 2016. My first book, The  

Illustrated Herbiary, started as a little chapter headers as I was   trying to write this memoir. I realized way back in 2016 that I didn’t have   the chops yet. I didn’t have the writing skill to pull this off. When I was  

Workshopping, the pages, people kept being like, “We’re not so sure about   this story, but those little herb descriptions are amazing!” So, I yanked   those out and actually, in my publishing contract for The Illustrated Herbiary, I  

Have explicit permission to reuse them in a memoir, which I didn’t end up doing.   I went for a slightly different format, but I was so concerned that I was going  

To use them up on the first book and wish that I had them later, that I had that   written into the contract. The first book came from the first   attempts to write this story before I was an herbalist, before I even knew  

That an herbalist was a thing that a person could be or that person could   have want to be. I was a writer. I started writing when I was eight or   nine. I was actually—I thought late in life when I was in grad school that  

I’m severely learning disabled. I started reading super, super late.   Actually, I think I started reading when I was eight or nine, way later   than most kids start reading. I started reading because a camp  

Counselor started a book with us, with my camp cabin. She didn’t finish   it by the end of the summer and I had to know what happened. This book was   called Taran Wanderer. It’s by a guy named Lloyd Alexander. He wrote on a  

Pretty typical hero’s journey arc. A hero’s journey is—most of your movies   are heroes’ journeys. You have your person. They’re bumbling about. Their   life is not so great. Something happens that we call the “call to adventure,”  

Where they have to step up and be a better dad or take a job in a different   place or save the maiden from the dragon. Whatever it is, the protagonist has to  

Step up and do something different than they were doing before. They have a   series of trials and tribulations that eventually end with them getting it   together and saving the princess, being a better dad. Whatever the thing is.  

Anyway, the story format was engrained in my being from a very young age. I   kept trying to write stories, but I just didn’t seem to have a story in   me so I spent most of my younger days trying to write stories. They kind of  

Went nowhere. I described a character, but they never did anything. I didn’t   have that arc. After my Ireland adventure, I was like, “Oh, my goodness.   This is a hero’s journey arc. I just lived through a hero’s journey arc. I  

Now know what this thing is. I did it. I can write it.” It was like the story   I was waiting for. I’ve been saying all my life I am a writer without a story,  

And all of a sudden I had a story. I knew that I wanted to write this book   personally, for myself, because this was always a goal.   Beyond that, the other thing that I had realized was that there weren’t  

Many good stories out there for people who were spiritually seeking,   for people who were trying to step out of the known ways of doing life   and do it differently. These weren’t stories I could find when I was going  

Through this process and wanting some guide post, someone wanting to   trailblaze for me. I’ve really wanted to write something that allowed other   people to have a sense of breadcrumbs. Your journey is not going to be the  

Same as my journey, but here are some trail markers so that you can   find your way. It was very important to me to find a way to do this that   was inclusive, that allowed people to look at my journey as an example,  

But still be able to see their journey running parallel to mine and   understand how their journey and my journey spoke to each other.   It took a bit of craft. It took a bit of writing craft that I had to  

Develop over six or seven years to be able to feel like I could share   the story in a way that was useful to other people. I didn’t just want   to write something for myself. I wanted to write something that  

Really gave the readers something that they might need in their life.   This book is loved by herbalists and non-herbalists alike. Like you   said, I saw a lot of people remark you on how it gave them those  

Breadcrumbs as they’re on their own spiritual journey of looking for   that magic. Yeah, yeah. I think that we all have   something we’re questing toward in life. Some people are looking for  

How you connect with them. Other people are trying to figure out how   you find purpose. We all have something that’s at the core of our   being. We’re trying to answer that question for ourselves. I think,  

For me, my question was “What’s my purpose?” and that was mixed in with   a god question like, “Why the heck are we here? What does this all   mean?” I found that stepping into a more nature-based way of living  

Melded both of these things. It gave me a sense of peace within to   start living by more natural rhythms, to start interacting with   the natural world as a member of the community instead of this  

“power over” thing that humans have with nature. It calmed   something in me and allowed me to feel like my actions had some   meaning and some purpose and that I was part of something larger   than myself. That has definitely been my—I have  

A very similar path and I’m so grateful for it too and grateful   that you’re sharing that with those breadcrumbs and however ways you   said people might be finding their path in different ways. It helps  

To see the trail—the different trails that had been led before us.   Letting Magic In is available wherever books are sold. Congrats   on another book. Wonderful. Thank you.   Let’s talk about sage. It’s a lovely, aromatic plant. We kind  

Of heard why you chose sage. You apparently are having lots of   sage in your life right now. I have so much sage in my life.   It’s interesting because I feel like we all have plants that we  

Really resonate with and work with a lot and sage was not that   plant for me. Culinary sage, I should say. I developed a   relationship unexpectedly with white sage. It’s one of my  

Greatest plant teachers. I share the concerns that are out there   about the wild harvesting and how that impacts not only the   plant but people who are Indigenous to America and their   practices.  

I also truly believe that when a plant decides that you are its   disciple, you say “thank you” and you listen. If you’re a   person who has a relationship with white sage and feels guilty  

About it, what I do is I try to grow it here and it was miserable.   It does not want to be in a rainforest. There is an organic   farm that I buy from. It’s farmed. It’s not wild crafted. Out west,  

My store, Herbiary, carries it. I feel like I’m supporting an   organic grower which always feels good and buying in a way that’s   sustainable. I started working with white sage because it started   whispering to me. It’s a really interesting plant.  

It has, for me—I realized that there’s a masculine energy that’s often   associated with it, but for me, it kind of has “grandma” energy. I find   that when I’m burning it and working around a person, the plant tends to  

Spiral at a place where something needs attention. Then if I can just   point that out to the person like, “Hey, what’s going on with your right   shoulder?” It’s gotten even more subtle than that. Sometimes it swirls  

Counter clockwise or clockwise. There’s all these different ways that   the smoke talks to me. It allows me to kind of get into dialogue with a   human right back to that idea of connecting like, “Hey, what’s going  

On there?” Once you start the conversation, then the person is   able to pull up and out like we talk about sage being used for clearing.   They’re able to unravel something that was stuck in their body. I  

Found that to be an amazing experience. I have not had that experience.   I’ve dried culinary sage and tried to use it the same way and have not   had the same experience, but kind of backwards because I think most people  

Work with culinary sage first. I started working with other members   of the family because I had the relationship with white sage and   because all of a sudden I had sage everywhere. No kidding. I have a  

Ridiculous amount of sage. I was introduced to the culinary sage   when I was learning herbs, but it wasn’t something that I deeply   connected with. So, now that it’s all over my property, I’m learning  

To work with it. It’s drying, which is actually great in this   rainforest where I’m always damp. That drying quality is wonderful   and cooling. For me, what I’ve really enjoyed  

Doing is trying to figure out how to use it more as a culinary than as a   medicinal because I live in a . I’m always damp, so that drying is   something that I want all the time. I’m interested in the daily use as  

Opposed to the medicinal dose. I started just playing with it and   seeing what could be done and I found that recipe at one point for fried   sage. It’s fried y’all. I am aware. We are frying, but it is ridiculously  

Good. The trick with this is you want dry   leaves. If it rained the night before, you’re going to end up with a soggy   fry which is gross. You really want the leaves to be dry. Get yourself a  

Handful of very dried leaves and then you can use butter or oil and you’re   frying them same way you would with a bacon or something like that. Put them   on a paper towel afterwards and soak off all the extra oil and they’ll  

Crisp up as they dry on the towel. It’s such a great topping for eggs,   for a squash soup. You just crumble it up. Also, they’re beautiful when   you get whole leaves and fry them and then blot them on the paper  

Towels like Thanksgiving dinner. Butternut squash soup, whole leaf   floating on the top that’s decorative design. They look wonderful. Obviously,   not a daily thing, but the fried sage is a wonderful little treat. I eat  

Them like potato chips. I have to. I love this recipe. It’s one that I’ve   made several times. I fry mine in coconut oil and I love them with   cheese–with a soft cheese. It’s a nice digestive herb with some cheese.  

Definitely, that squash soup garnish sounds really beautiful.   It’s really good. Thank you so much, Maia, for sharing   this recipe with us. For the listeners, if you’d like to download your free   crispy fried sage recipe that’s beautifully illustrated by Tatiana,  

Then visit the show notes at herbswithrosaleepodcast.com.   I have noticed for myself that I went through a period, a dozen years, where   I was working as a clinical herbalist. It was what I was doing all day every  

Day. I was treating the herbs pretty much solely as medicine. I was using   them in tincture form and formulating. It was very technical and removed.   Since I’ve moved more towards being an author that’s my daily life I don’t see  

Clients anymore, I’ve really tried to figure out how I can interact with the   plants on a daily basis in just a more gentle, companionable kind of way. I   really love this ability to just run outside, grab a handful of something,  

Bring it into the kitchen and use it in my cooking, use it in my tea,   although I have to admit I’m a huge black tea drinker. I don’t drink as  

Much purple tea as maybe I should. I use a lot of herbs in cooking. You’re   just talking about the digestive quality. Sometimes after dinner I just go out to   the garden and I nibble as that digestive. I remember a friend who lived in France  

Talking about how her family would just do that–just go out to the garden and   stand in the garden and nibble. It was just such a beautiful image. I tried to  

Incorporate that into my daily life like, “Oh, I need a little bit of this. I’m just   going to run out and grab it,” instead of the herbs being precious and set aside for  

Medicine. I’m looking for the daily connection – the scent, the tactile quality,   the reminder that I am a part of this larger ecosystem and community.   I love that so much, Maia. Again, very similar paths on that including the black  

Tea. One thing that I did not know before I grew sage in my own garden was how   incredibly beautiful it is. Before I grew it, I was familiar with it cut and dried.  

Those whole leaves are so beautiful. They come in all different—you can buy all   different kinds of hybrids, but that silvery green in itself—Salvia   officinalis—is so beautiful, but then it’s the flowers that blew my mind. I had no  

Idea. Those flowers are so prolific with all of that wand of purple sage flowers,   which was so intensely beautiful. I just had no idea. That was one of the biggest   surprises of growing herbs, actually. I can imagine your garden is just filled  

With purple flowers at some point. It’s full with purple flowers because a   lot of the allium have purple flowers as well. The thing that surprises me about   sage is how large it grows. It’s really big. My sage usually keeps going straight  

Through the winter, which is also really fun. When the rest of the garden is dead,   I go out and there’s sage, which makes me wonder if that’s part of the association   with wisdom. Because winter is often associated with the elders and they’re  

Sage – still beautiful and silver and going strong straight through the winter.   I always notice because Thanksgiving, when I go to grab herbs from the garden for   whatever I’m cooking, everything else is miserable and there is the sage.  

  That’s funny. I’m in Zone 4, so not in the   temperate rainforest. We often have snow on the ground by the time Thanksgiving is, but   I know that there usually not too much snow. I know I can go out there and dust off the  

Snow and get my fresh sage. We usually stuff the turkey with sage, as well as do all the   stuffings and everything. Sage heavy our Thanksgiving is. That’s funny that we both  

Have that same experience, but different. Even under the snow, I can just brush off   the snow and there’s great looking sage under there. Not many plants you can do that   with. No, not many plants you can do that with at  

All. It’s a really interesting one. I think I learned that it was incredibly drying,   like super astringent. I think that that’s part of why I avoided it for a long time. I  

Was just concerned about its extra action, but I don’t find in cooking with it that it   has that ridiculous potency. In tincture, yes, but in culinary form, I think it’s   lovely. If you’re super vata, super, super dry in your constitution, it might not be  

A good choice for you, but I think for the rest of us it’s really a lovely herb. It’s   an aromatic so it’s going to be antimicrobial, antiviral, anti, anti, anti. Sometimes I will  

Mix it with honey just to counterbalance some of the super dry. This is one of those I don’t   often like to talk about ingesting essential oils because I feel like Americans are so bad   at subtlety. With the essential oils that you can ingest,  

You need to be ingesting them at such low levels. If you can be a subtle person, I’m   going to tell you something. If you can’t, fast forward 10 seconds so you don’t screw  

Yourself up. If you can be a subtle person, take a 1/4 cup of honey and put one drop,   no more, sage essential oil. Make sure that it’s organic so that you’re not getting crap.  

Mix it in with the honey and then put that into a cup of tea. This is great for a sore   throat, those really painful sore throats like the strep sore throat. So good, but it  

Is so easy to overdo it and it is not good for you. It is not good for your liver, so   when I say one drop, I mean one drop. If two drops go in, then you got to add more  

Honey to dilute it further. Also, sage essential oil is not good if you have   seizures. This is what to avoid if you have seizures. The essential oil form is very  

Grounding. Sometimes if I’m feeling really out in space, I’ll just put a drop of sage   essential oil on the bottom of my feet. The other thing that I’ve used it   for—there’s two other things I’ve used it for that are fun and interesting. I’ll put  

Fresh sage leaves in a bucket of super hot water if I have a migraine, and then I put   my feet in the bucket of super hot water. The hot water is going to dilate the blood  

Vessels of your feet. It’s going to change the blood flow in your body, which can   really help with the migraine. I would say it works 60% of the time. It’s not if I had  

The 100% cure all for a migraine, I’d be rich. You need the water super, super hot.   The sage is not necessary, but when I get migraines I get shakes with them, and that  

The sage just helps with that grounding. Just getting your energy down when it’s   getting very frantic. The other thing I love it for is mix with   apple cider vinegar and let it sit as if it were a tincture and then that’s a great  

Hair rinse. Especially if you have dark hair, it’ll add a little depth and shine.   Do you dilute that when you use it? Or do you just use it straight apple cider  

Vinegar? Put in a separate bottle? I make straight apple cider vinegar with   the sage. The way that I use it is usually standing in the shower. I pour it over my  

Head so it’s getting shower water. You know what I mean? I don’t put it in. I   know people who put it in and let it sit. I don’t have that kind of patience. I  

Pour over and the shower water is happening and stuff. I would say if you   want to put it in and let it sit, I would dilute it.   Nice. Those are really—all those sound like so much fun. I haven’t done essential  

Oil and honey, but I don’t think a year goes by that I don’t make sage leaf and   flower infused honey, just the whole herb. That’s one of my favorite things and like  

You said, it’s incredible for a sore throat. With that you can take it by the   spoonful or I put it in my teas a lot. I just go through it through the year  

Either out of enjoyment or for a sore throat, depending on what the needs are.   I just don’t go a year without making it. It’s one of my favorites. That’s so cool   about the herbal baths because I feel like herbal foot baths are just  

Underrated, so thank you for that too. I love a good herbal foot bath. I love   those little things that people kind of forget to do that are such a treat. I  

Love putting honey on my face and place some herbs in a bowl of water, pouring   hot water over the herbs and then the honey is on your face. You have all the  

Aromatic herbs in your bowl and you take a towel and you go under and you   steam off the honey and it drips down your face and drips into the bowl. That   would be great with your sage honey. Nice.  

Yeah, Yeah. That’s lovely. I’ve never done that.   I’ve only done that kind of thing is like I have congestion in my sinuses   and lungs kind of thing, but never—it’s like a self-care, but I’m sure it’s  

Lovely. Pore cleaner. It’s so good for your   skin. Lovely. Was there anything else that   you would like to add about sage? I feel like we’ve covered so many bases   here. I feel like that’s a really good  

Beginning although I want your particular recipe for sage honey.   It’s so simple. Just chop those babies up. I like it fresh, fresh sage leaves.   It could just be the leaves but it’s fun to add the flowers too if that  

Happens to be going on. Put those up, fill a jar gently and then add the   honey that’s been—liquid honey—and give it a good stir. Let it sit for   a bit. Do you put—whenever I do honeys, I  

Always try to find somewhere warm to put them. I used to have a house with   radiators and I would put them—the jar in a water bath on the radiator.   But I don’t have that now. Do you…? I just put it on the counter. The  

Honey is so cool because it’s that hydroscopic—I forgot the name for   it—it pulls out the water. With the aromatics, I think it pulls it all   out. You can just—I always leave the sage in there. I never strain  

It again because I can’t be bothered with that.   I’d say woman after my own heart. But the longer you leave them in, they   just get dry and crispy in there. What I do is I just put them in with my tea  

When I’m infusing it or even to just eat it is fine. I think it pulls it   out just fine. Nice.   Maia, for people who don’t know you, I feel like we should talk about these  

Herbal things you do because people might not know about Herbiary. They   might not know about your other books which I adore as well. I think you   have a new journal out too. I just said them all, but let’s go for it.  

Tell us about Herbiary. Okay, so when I came back from   studying in Ireland, I opened a store called Herbiary. It started in   Philadelphia. We sold the store there and then I moved down to Asheville,  

North Carolina and we have a store here and we’re online. We carry   medicinals. Sometimes we joke and call it “The Soapiary” because there’s   always fabulous local soap makers. We can’t help ourselves so we buy all the  

Natural soaps made with essential oils. We had zillions of them – natural   skincare products, essential oils. We try really hard to have a good variety   for people who are using herbs as medicine and then also, the things  

Like soap that we call “gateway drugs” to get people into using more natural   skincare products and things like that. That’s the stores and then…   I have to say I love Herbiary online. I hope one day I can visit. I have long  

Wanted to go. You are so welcome here. You come [crosstalk].   It’s just a couple of states away from me, all of them. It’s a little bit far, but I   hope to go one day. I would love to have you so come visit. The  

Books? I write a lot of books because I made the mistake of looking up the big guys like   Stephen King. How many books do they do every year? I’m like, “Oh, I have to do a  

Book a year,” which is crazy, people. It’s crazy. I’m going to slow down, but I’ve been   doing a book a year for a while. The first set is based on the ancient   medicine kingdoms. If you studied Taoist medicine, there are three ancient kingdoms –  

Animal, vegetable, mineral.  We have the Herbiary,   the Bestiary and the Crystallary. They’re all based on the actual characteristics and   properties of the herbs, the animals and the crystals. The crystals are really interesting  

Because in Taoist medicine crystals were put in water and then the water was sipped. That   sounds crazy pants on the surface, but if you take supplements, if you take iron, if you  

Take magnesium, if you take calcium, we now do this with pills. They didn’t have pills at that   point, so they were putting the stone that had the iron, like hematite in a cup, letting the  

Stuff get into the water and drinking it. You don’t really want to do this because stones   are often many different things. If you know you have a pure stone, that’s one thing, but  

A lot of times the hematite and also asbestos or whatever, which you don’t want to drink.   Thus some problems with the ancient medicine. Really fascinating how for thousands of years   people have understood the property of different minerals and used it in their  

Medicines. That was the first proofing and then-   Before you go into the fourth book, I just want to interrupt. I remember when The   Herbiary was published, the book, I was excited for it. The illustrations are  

Stunning. The preliminary artwork and stuff is fun to see. My thought, I remember   is being like this is going to be a fun, cutesy book about herbs with little tidbits   here and there. I remember being absolutely floored at the wisdom that you’ve captured  

In the book. I remember the next one came out about animals and I was like, “Oh,   we’ll see.” I’m the kind of an herbalist, a little biased towards the plants. We’ll   see. That one also, again, the wisdom that you’ve captured through these animals.  

Those are just a phenomenal set of books. The cards are so much fun. Of course, the   illustrations are so stunning. It was surprising to me. Now, having known you   for a while and knowing just what an incredible and insightful writer you are  

And thinker, it’s not surprising. That was back in the beginning, so…   I’m also kind of ridiculously serious. I was even annoyed at how cutesy the   illustrations were. My publisher was in charge of that and I wasn’t. I remember  

When I saw the cover of The Illustrated Herbiary, it looks like the farmer’s   almanac! My editor is like, “Great!” I’m like, “No, not great!” I was going for—I   want white and crisp and tone poems to the plants, which luckily, my editor was  

Smarter than I was and realized what people would want and what would hold   their attention. It’s been an interesting journey for me because even using the word   “magic”—I am a person who has way too many academic credits. I just—I have always had  

An academic curiosity and always wanted to know. I want to know why and I want it   proven. That was a lot of the hurdle when I went to Ireland—was that I was kind of  

So rigidly intellectual. My teacher really felt like she had to shake that   out of me. I don’t like a lot of Letting Magic In, thus the title, going from this   person who was very rational and very rigid in her rationality trying to let  

This sense of wonder and enchantment into my own life. I always read it in   books, but it was this thing I escaped to because I didn’t think it could  

Infuse my own life. It was separate. It was in a book. Learning how to pull it   into my own life was magical. I think that’s a perfect segue into the  

Fourth book in the series, which is a book that was, again, meant a lot to me.   I didn’t even know that that series could get any better. Tell us about the  

Fourth book, kind of the capstone. The fourth book I named, The Wild Wisdom   Almanac, but it got renamed the Wild Wisdom Companion. Don’t ask. It is a   Wheel of the Year book. It’s about how to take the three medicine kingdoms,  

Animal, vegetable, mineral, and incorporate them into your life around   the Wheel of the Year. It’s like how do you make friends with all this stuff   and use it. People who have read the series—so many people it is their  

Favorite of the series. I hear this over and over. It’s fascinating and I   blame the name. It is the least seller when I look at the stats. It’s like   the baby book, but so many people who are deeply into this world, this herbalism  

And slow living and finding ways to live with nature, it’s their favorite book   so… [Crosstalk] Then from there, I wrote a book called   The Night School, which I’ve been dabbling in mysticism. I studied philosophy in  

College. Philosophy and mysticism, especially if you go back to the ancient   Greek and Romans, are pretty close to each other. I’ve always been curious   about how ancient mysticism and philosophy have fed our current thoughts  

About spirituality. So that plus, I kept saying to myself, “What would you learn   if you actually went to Hogwarts?” Those two questions informed The Night School.   A lot of books about mysticism are really, really dry and really, really  

Hard to read, so I wanted to create something that was fun and that was   engaging and kind of gave a primer for different forms of mystical study and   how we use them today, and what the roots are because I feel like so often, people  

Get books that have a spell in it. They just do this thing without any   understanding of where that thing came from or why it might work. I feel like   once you understand the building blocks of mysticism, then you can create your  

Own magic. You can understand the reasons behind something instead of   just reading someone else’s words and being like, “Okay, now I have to   take rose petals and sprinkle them counterclockwise and say these words.”  

I’m always like, “Yuck! Don’t tell me what to think and to say.” Instead, I   want to know why rose petals? Why clockwise? What are these words? And   then I can go, “Oh! Okay, for me, I’m going to use carnation and not rose.  

Who cares about the counterclockwise? Those words don’t make any sense to me   at all. I’m making up my own.” Once you understand the why you can   create ceremonies and rituals and moments that are meaningful to you—going back to  

The idea of connection, the point is to connect. You need to find the symbols,   the scents, the plants that tap into your own subconscious because what   you’re doing with any kind of a ritual is talking to yourself, really. You’re  

Reinforcing, “This is what matters to me. I feel strongly about this. I’m   putting my energy towards this. I’m putting my intention toward this.” You   want to use these symbols that are meaningful to you in doing that. For  

Some people that might be religious symbolism. If you’re a person who is   of a particular faith, then you have symbols and language from that faith   and you can take that and use it to reinforce your own thinking. It’s like  

A mantra. Spells are not so mysterious. A spell   is really just kind of saying to the universe, “This thing is important to   me. I’m going to put my energy toward this particular thing.” I think that  

That works best because what we’re trying to do is bolster our self when   we use the symbols that speak to us personally.   I love that. I really resonate with that a lot.  

The Night School is really to help people understand those foundations and   fundamentals so that it becomes very easy to make your own magic, to make magic that   makes sense in your life and your world for you.  

It’s a very insightful book. I love the beginning and the invitation to wait ‘til   it’s night time before you dig in. It has a very particular field to it. It’s not—I  

Don’t think it’d be easy to feel neutral about that book. It evokes a lot of   feeling within it. I really wanted to come up with a metaphor   for that kind of soft misty, sideways way of thinking. For me, the night became the  

Metaphor for when your defenses go down, when you put your rational brain aside   like you’re done with your work for the day, it doesn’t have to be this kind of   perfect rational world. Everything is a little soft and misty and fuzzy and  

Different things seem possible. You brought up the Hogwarts reference,   so I’m not going to hold back anymore. When you went talking about letting   magic in, it made me think of—in my mind, it’s like the journey from muggle to  

Whatever we end up at the end of that. [Crosstalk]   That’s so funny – the journey from muggle to wizard. It is. I feel like it is that kind   of real world transformation. It’s not external stuff. It’s internal stuff. It’s  

How you choose to see the world, how you choose to interpret the information coming   in because we always have a choice. How we choose to think about things is a choice.   You have to train your brain sometimes to think differently.  

Maia, thank you so much for all the work that you put out into this world and all   the ways that you show us magic and ways to let it in. At the end, here of the  

Interview, I love to ask everyone a question. You and I chatted and you were so excited   to talk about what’s in your first aid kit. We’re breaking tradition a little bit here  

To go back to a Season 9 question, but I’m in charge so it’s totally allowed. What is   in your first aid kit? Your herbal first aid kit…that’s obvious. If you say   Neosporin, it loses a bit of magic I have to say.  

There’s no need for it.     Totally allowed, totally allowed. I don’t need to have Neosporin in the house.   The thing that we use the most in my house is bentonite clay. We use so much clay in  

This house. It’s crazy. For those of you who don’t know what it is, bentonite clay is a   high-mineral clay. It comes powdered. You can add water to it. After you add water,  

You can put essential oils in. Sometimes I’ll mash up plantain and mix that with   the bentonite clay. We use it for everything. We use it to dry poison ivy.  

I’ve seen it for that. It’s amazing! I mixed it with hydrosol for that. It makes such an   interesting substance. It was so effective. We don’t have a ton of that here, but a  

Four-year old got into it. It was horrible and it was just amazing for her. Anyway,   continue. I was- I mix it with apple cider vinegar and that   for poison ivy. Bentonite clay is on the counter. We have a little jar of it on the  

Counter in the house. We put it on mosquito bites. It’s very drawing. It pulls things   out. Bee stings it will put the stinger out, so it’s super useful. I have about 17 forms  

Of arnica. I have homeopathic pellets. I have oil that you can rub on. I have   tincture which is—that’s another super low dose. That’s one drop in a big glass of   water. Interestingly, comfrey is the East Coast version of arnica. Arnica is more  

Of a West Coast plant, so when I have comfrey in the garden, I’ll use fresh   comfrey instead of arnica. Arnica for all your bumps, bruises, scrapes—I actually   take that back, not scrapes. You really don’t want to put it on broken skin, but  

Your bumps and your bruises–that’s arnica. Have a basic “heal all” salve. That’s your   plantain, comfrey. I think there are some jewelweed in the one we usually have.   Because I have the store, we’re always trying different things, different brands  

And different people’s products, but it’s got to have comfrey. It’s got to have   plantain. The other ingredients tend to shift a little bit.   Lavender essential oil is like—it is an entire pharmacy in one bottle. It’s amazing  

For any kind of burn like sunburns, all the way to second degree burns. With really bad   burns you do lavender oil, cool water, lavender oil, cool water and you keep   alternating. I have watched things that are screaming and starting to blister just slowly  

Cool down and the skin returns to normal. It’s crazy. It’s crazy. You want lavender   angustifolia for that. Some of the other varieties work but not as well and you really  

Want to make sure that you have essential oil and not fragrance oil. Fragrance oil does not   do didly-squat. It’s not from plants. If it doesn’t have a Latin name on it, it’s not an  

Essential oil. Those are my big ones. My other kind of strange thing, especially   for travel, I use an herbal deodorant that’s lavender, thyme and vetiver. When I’m   traveling, I have this essential oil blend that’s lavender, thyme and vetiver that’s  

Always with me. Thyme is antimicrobial and antiviral. Lavender is also antiseptic.   Vetiver is very grounding. Vetiver is also kind of thick and sticky. It has a little   bit of that “holds things together,” so I use that on everything when I’m traveling.  

If I think I’m getting sick, I roll them on my hands and put my hands over my nose   and smell. If I get a little cut, I just roll it on. That deodorant-  

These are diluted in oil then? I’m assuming. Actually, they’re neat because there’s enough   lavender in there. That lavender becomes the base. That underarm deodorant roller is used   for everything when I travel. It’s the thing. Wow. These are awesome first aid kits. I can  

See why you’re excited to share them. I travel quite a bit, especially with book   stuff, and you want something that gets super small that you can put in your little clear   plastic, show in airport people pouch. I’ve dialed it down at this point.  

I love it. Thank you so much for sharing those and thanks for coming back on the   show sharing so much wisdom, so many things about sage that are just fantastic. I was  

So pleased to have you here. I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you   so much, Rosalee. Thank you, Maia.   Thanks for being here. Don’t forget to head over to the show notes at   herbswithrosaleepodcast.com to download your beautifully illustrated recipe card  

And get a transcript of the show. There you’ll also be able to sign up for my   weekly newsletter, which is the best way to stay in touch with me. You can also   visit Maia directly at maiatoll.com. If you’d like more herbal episodes to  

Come your way, then one of the best ways to support this podcast is by subscribing   on YouTube or your favorite podcast app. I deeply believe that this world needs   more herbalists and plant-centered folks and I’m so glad that you’re here as part  

Of this herbal community.   Also, a big round of thanks to the people all over the world who make this podcast   happen week to week. Nicole Paull is the Project Manager who oversees the whole  

Operation from guest outreach, to writing show notes, to actually uploading each   episode and so many other things I don’t even know. She really holds this whole   thing together. Francesca is our fabulous video and audio  

Editor. She not only makes listening more pleasant. She also adds beauty to the   YouTube videos with plant images and video overlays. Tatiana Rusakova is the   botanical illustrator who creates gorgeous plant and recipe illustrations for us. I  

Love them. I know that you do too. Kristy edits the recipe cards and then Jenny   creates them as well as the thumbnail images for YouTube. Michele is the tech wizard   behind the scenes and Karin is our Student Services Coordinator and Customer Support.  

For those of you who like to read along, Jennifer is who creates the transcripts   each week. Xavier, my handsome French husband, is the cameraman and website   IT guy. It takes an herbal village to make it all happen including you.  

One of the best ways to retain and fully understand something you’ve just learned   is to share it in your own words. With that in mind, I invite you to share your   takeaways with me and the entire Herbs with Rosalee Community. You can leave  

Comments on my YouTube Channel, on the herbswithrosaleepodcast.com show notes   page or simply hit “Reply” to my Wednesday email. I read every comment   that comes in and I’m excited to hear your herbal thoughts on sage.  

Okay, you’ve lasted to the very end of the show which means you get a gold star   and this herbal tidbit: I had to do a bit of searching for this   episode’s herbal tidbit because Maia already shared so many interesting  

Things about sage. I also have a solo podcast about sage where I’ve shared a   lot there as well. So, what I did is I checked in on recent research and found   this observational study from March 2023. In this study, 74 patients aged  

13 to 69 were given Echinacea and sage lozenges for an acute sore throat. The   herbs were well-tolerated with no complications. The cool thing about   this study is that they not only took subjective feedback to see that the  

Lozenges reduced throat pain by 48%, but they also saw that the viral loads   in those taking the lozenges were reduced by 62% after taking a single   lozenge. The researchers concluded Echinacea salvia lozenges, represent  

A valuable and safe option for the early treatment of acute sore throats   capable to alleviate symptoms and contribute to reducing viral loads   in the throat. Go Sage and go Echinacea!