The Viral Pasta Shape That Changed Everything

Today, Josh and Nicole are joined by Dan Pashman, inventor of the viral pasta shape –cascatelli!

0:00 Welcome, Dan Pashman!
1:40 Inventing Cascatelli
5:45 Do Sauce & Pasta Shape Combos Matter?
10:11 Round Vs. Square Ravioli
11:03 The Best Kind of Vodka Sauce
12:19 The Best Pasta Dish Dan’s Ever Had
13:42 Why Is Pasta Romantic?
15:37 Breaking The Pasta Rules
18:38 Etymology of Pesto
21:22 Rejected Pastas
23:24 Can Anyone Beat Raos?
24:26 Best Pasta Sauce Overall
30:44 Opinions Are Like Casseroles
31:37 Is Lasagna The Worst?
36:04 Angel Hair Is Overrated
38:35 Big Hole Is A Big No
42:35 Less Water Is Goated

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Marina. Marinara Marina. Marinara Marina. I don’t get paid enough for this. This is “A Hot Dog is a Sandwich.” Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal. So what? That makes no sense. A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What?

Welcome to our podcast “A Hotdog is a Sandwich,” the show we break down in the world’s biggest food debates. I’m your host Josh Scherer And I’m your host Nicole Enayati. And we have a very special guest joining us today. Please welcome the creator and host of the James Beard Award nominated podcast.

Wait, you won that, right? Yes. Technically, yeah. No, I guess if you won it, you are also nominated. That’s true. That’s true. James Beard Award winning podcasts. You weren’t wrong. James Beard Award winning podcast. Put some respect on the name, the Sporkful inventor of the pasta shape that changed the game forever.

And author of the new cookbook, “Anything’s Pastable.” Dan Pashman. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me, guys. Of course. You like pasta? You eat it every day. I mean, look, I got kids. I eat a lot of pasta, so, yeah. Every day, no. But I eat a lot of pasta.

But if you could, you would. Well, I’ll tell you the truth. In the process of working on this new cookbook, there were times that I was testing multiple recipes in the same day. I was cooking a pasta dish for lunch, and then one for dinner. And after a couple months

Straight of like some days, two a days. there were moments that I was, that I got sick of pasta. I never thought I’d say it, Nicole, but there were a couple moments. But 99% of the time, you put pasta in front of me, I’ll be very happy. My people. This is my people.

We made a bold claim in this intro that you invented the pasta shape that changed the game forever. And those were words that I directly wrote because I remember listening to your multipart series on the “Sporkful, Mission: ImPASTAble” on creating a new pasta shape effectively from scratch. So cool.

And not only did I fall in love with the storytelling behind that, but also, I fell in love with how obsessive you were about the types of sauce that need to go into the types of pasta. And then, also the architecture of the pasta. It matters. Yeah, yeah. It absolutely matters.

And so, yeah, just tell us a little bit how you invented Cascatelli, and then how that translated into your new cookbook. Yeah, so, I mean, as you say, people want the full story, the Mission Impossible series is still in the Sporkful podcast feed. But the short version of the story is that

I was dissatisfied with a lot of the pasta shapes out there, like spaghetti. I’ve eaten a lot of spaghetti in my day. It’s not that great of a shape. You know, I have these three metrics that I came up with that I used to judge all pasta shapes. So there’s forkability.

How easy is it to get a good bite on your fork and keep it there? Sauceability, how well does sauce adhere? And tooth sinkability, which is how satisfying is it to sink your teeth into it. And spaghetti fails all three of these tests. Getting a good bite of spaghetti on your fork

Is almost impossible. It’s either too much or too little. You have dangler that smear all over your face. You finish the plate of pasta, and half the sauce is still sitting there. And so, I set out to invent a new better shape of pasta that would check all these boxes.

But it was important to me, like, I didn’t just want a gimmick. I didn’t just want a pasta shape that would like look cool on Instagram. I wanted it to work and to be legitimately good to eat. And I wanted to actually mass produce it and try to sell it.

And that ended up being a lot harder than I anticipated ’cause I had to convince the people who make pasta dyes, which are like the molds for the shapes to work with me. And there’s only one guy left in America who still makes pasta dyes. Wow. His name is Giovanni.

He lives in northern Massachusetts. Oh, wow. And like he makes the dyes for Kraft mac and cheese, he was just like, not that interested in hanging out with a podcaster with a dream. If you wrote that into a movie, they would’ve told you like, “Hey, we gotta recast Giovanni.”

Right, right. It’s too on the nerves. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right, right, right. Let’s make his name Pete. And then COVID hit and we couldn’t even get the bronze you need to make the dyes, the moles. Then I had to get a pasta company to work with me.

All the big players, again, were not interested. The really small companies didn’t have the apparatus. I ended up teaming up with a mid-sized company called Sfoglini, S-F-O-G-L-I-N-I, in upstate New York. And we made the shape, and it’s called Cascatelli. It’s a short shape with these sort of two parallel ruffles

That stick out and create kind of a, what I call a sauce trough, like a gap between them. And sauce goes in there and it does not come out. And it’s got ruffles that create a very interesting texture in your mouth. And against all odds it went viral.

And it’s now in stores around the country. You can order it on Sfoglini’s website. It’s been kind of incredible. It was named one of TIME magazine’s Best Inventions of the Year. I was on everywhere from the New York Times to Access Hollywood, which is not on my vision board when I started.

But to bring it full circle, Josh, like as exciting as it all was when Cascatelli went viral and everyone’s buying it, and they’re sending me all these pictures of what they’re making. It was very gratifying to see people cooking with this creation of mine. But there was also a problem,

Which was that 75% of what I saw was tomato sauce, meat sauce, mac and cheese, pesto. I mean, a, a few party animals made cacho pepe. It just wasn’t that inventive. And that gave me this idea. I said, “What if I were to come up with a cookbook full

Of, you know, totally non-traditional pasta recipes. None of the classics you’ve seen a million times. New and different approaches to pasta that would show people that there’s so many more things that you can and should be putting on your pasta. And we did a multi-part podcast series that’s getting,

You know, that, you know, sort of the sequel to Mission: ImPASTAble with my kids and my wife in it, about the creation of this cookbook, “Anything’s Pastable.” And that’s sort of the next step in the journey. I think it’s beautiful ’cause on the one hand, pasta is this infinite playground.

Sure, yeah, yeah. You can do literally anything you want with it. I remember, I mean, stupid example in my college dining hall at UC Santa Barbara, they made pad Thai with spaghetti. Yeah. And everybody was like, “Hey, this is pretty messed up.” And then, you ate it and you’re like,

It still tastes good though. It’s not pad Thai but this like, ketchup up. It does the job. I’m in college, whatever. It’s the job, yeah. Right. But at the same time, with pasta, like the architecture, the form of it is so important, of course, to the sauce.

That’s what we’re trying to do today. We’re trying to, one, answer the question, does the shape of the noodle actually matter with what sauce you pair it with? I know, Dan, you would argue yes. But then can we come up with some sort of universal answer to best sauce?

If there were one sauce that could go with the most shapes of pastas, what would that be? Dan, my first question for you, Cascatelli with such a unique shape, what is like the perfect archetype of sauce to go with it? And what is the least perfect? Like, what’s the worst way,

If there is one, to use Cascatelli? I would say best would either be something thick, you know, thick and creamy, or with a lot of small bits. Like a meat sauce. I love it with, there’s a recipe in my cookbook for mapo tofu Cascatelli. Oh, hell yeah. It’s like a ground meat

Sauce using all the flavors of mapo tofu that I worked with a great recipe developer named Andrea Wynn on. So like anything thick, anything with little bits of meat or anything with big chunks where you can stab, you’re gonna stab to compose ideal bites.

So like big chunks of vegetables, shrimp, stuff like that. Because Cascatelli is very stab able. Not so great, are like a thin oily sauce, because Cascatelli is very meaty. And I think that, you know, you want a little bit more of a delicate shape to go with a delicate light sauce. Interesting.

What’s your ideal combo? Yeah, what do you guys think? Like, if you go to a pasta place like Kento or something, or Olive Garden even, like what do you pick? Okay, so I tend to… I have this thing, I have that disease that people have where they go into a restaurant,

And they try and order the most interesting thing on the menu, often to their own detriment. Nicole knows what I’m talking about because it happens all the time with us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, when I go to a restaurant, unless their whole thing, I remember this restaurant called Uovo

Opened in Los Angeles. Sure. With it’s KazuNori Hiho Cheeseburger and Uovo. Sugarfish. It’s the sugarfish family, right? They own it. It’s a part of the sugarfish family. But those three are always together in like one shopping center for the most part. Their whole shtick, right? Yeah. Is that they fly in

All their pasta, fresh from bologna. Yeah. Overnight, every single day. So if you go to a place that’s repping the pasta from bologna, you get the, you know, the bolognese, right? And so if it’s something like that, I will do that. But for me, I’m always trying to order the most interesting

Thing possible. And so for me, a lot of these classics, like Bucatini all’Amatriciana it’s great, but it’s not something I seek out. Sure. Very often Spaghetti, cacio e pepe or carbonara, it’s not something that I often seek out. The things that I find myself really loving are, I’m thinking about this dish

Is a lasagnette with king crab ragu from a restaurant. Oh, yeah. And the way that he. I’d never think to put those together. Dan, what does lasagnette mean to you? ‘Cause, I don’t know how they were using it. I mean, it sounds like it’s a derivative of lasagna.

Broken up lasagna sheets is what I thought. If you really wanted know the truth. Oh, is that what it is? That’s what I thought. I think of that as maltagliati, which means badly cut. It’s a similar kind of concept. Well, so, if you imagine those very heavily ruffled

Lasagna noodles that I personally hate for actual lasagna, it was like that, except it was just very long and thin. The width of like a- Oh, just the edges. The width of like a pappardelle or like a. Oh, that’s that. It’s like a mafalda or a mafaldina.

I think so. Nicole, wait, Google that. I can also Google it. I’m right here. Right, it’s like fettuccine, but with ruffles down the edges. Yes, correct, correct, correct. Yes, correct. Yes. That is one of my favorite shapes. I love that shape. And it was a huge inspiration to me with Cascatelli.

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was that, but it was long, it was slurpable. But it was the way that the sauce wicked off of the ruffles as you slurped it created like a secondary experience. That is probably the single best pasta and sauce combination I have ever had in my life. Really?

Mm-hm. I don’t know. I always find myself leading towards like, round stuff. So like, I love gnocchi. Like if there’s gnocchi on the. Is gnocchi a pasta? Are we calling this a pasta? I would call it, I mean, yeah. I’ll give it to you, Nicole. With Dan, yes. Like raviolis,

Like, things like that I always tend to order. What about square ravioli though, Nicole? Whatever. Wait, hold on. Is there a way to differentiate between a square and a round? Because I think we can all agree that round ravioli is significantly better, right? I love round ravioli more than square,

I think it depends what you’re looking for. I mean, a square ravioli will have more perimeter edge in relation to interior. And so if you- I want more middle. Right. You’re in it for the filling, Nicole. Always. So you want round. But if you like the textural experience of a jagged frame,

Like, or an ornate exterior, then you want a square ravioli ’cause you’ll get more exterior in relation to interior. Yeah, so I always lean towards something rounded, stuffed, and plump instead of like long noodles. Although, rigatoni regete is my favorite noodle of all time. Truly my favorite. The best.

I love that with a vodka sauce. But let me tell you something about Novo vodka sauce that gets on my last nerve. I don’t like how it’s like tomato paste that’s cooked down to like osec, and then they put a bunch of cream in it. I don’t like that.

I like it whenever it was just whatever red sauce they had in the back. Yes. And whatever white sauce they had in the back and they mixed it together. That is my vodka sauce. And that’s the vodka sauce that I will always love more. But I still order the regular stuff.

But yeah, I always find like big plump, juicy pastas with like, heavy creamy sauces. Because I always tell myself, I don’t want to make this at home. You know, at home I can just throw some red sauce, and some noodles, and call it a day. But something about heavy creamy sauces,

And round beautiful pastas at a restaurant that knows what they’re doing is one of my favorite expressions of pasta. I love it. Also, I feel like when you order something like that in a restaurant, you kind of don’t really know how much cream and butter is going into it.

And I don’t want, baby, It’s probably just a touch. I’m sure it’s fine. And then you go and make the recipe at home and they’re like, “You need six gallons of heavy cream for this dish.” Exactly. I won’t even order pasta from a restaurant that has an open kitchen.

Or if they do, I like, excuse myself to the bathroom. Like, I don’t wanna be faced with this. Oh, my gosh. Dan, do you have like a single best pasta dish that you’ve ever had in your life? Like, does that stuck in your head? I mean, so, for the cookbook,

I did a research trip across Italy. Cool. To learn about some very obscure… First of all, to explore larger questions of Italian pasta history. And also to research a couple of specific very obscure Italian pasta dishes that I wanted to put in the book. And I went to a place in Rome.

I met up with a food writer there named Katie Parla. And she took me to this place in Rome called Armando Aponte and Arm Armando at the Pantheon. And I know that I just talked a lot of crap about spaghetti- But. They served me a spaghetti alla gricia,

It’s like a precursor to carbonara. It’s carbonara without eggs. So it’s just guanciale, which is, you know, like a cured pork jowl. Pecorino romano cheese, black pepper. They do a touch of white wine there. But like the spaghetti there was just perfectly cooked, perfectly too sinkable. The guanciale was in slabs,

And like crispy around the edges, and meaty in the center. And this mound of pecorino on top, like a fresh snowfall. And then they didn’t just like have little bits of black pepper. They took whole peppercorns, and just like crunched ’em up, and put ’em on top.

So you took one bite, and you got this a nose full of this like earthy fragrant black pepper. And it was the best thing I ate in Italy. And I’m still dreaming about it. I love the way we all talk about food, how dreamy. Pasta is also an incredible food to talk about

In those romantic terms, right? Sure, sure, sure. You’re right, Josh. But it’s interesting that you use the word romantic ’cause one of my big takeaways from my trip to Italy that really stuck with me and informed the cookbook is that there’s so much romance around Italian food.

And being in Italy, and eating pasta is very romantic, and there’s a nostalgia and a tradition to it. But what I learned, and what was so shocking to me in my research there is that Italian pasta history is not nearly as old as we think it is. Oh.

Pasta was not the national food of Italy until about 100 years ago. And that many very iconic dishes like carbonara was only invented in like the 1950s. Other dishes that I went to go research there were invented around 1960. Chicken parmesan is older than carbonara is the thing

That I like to tell every Italian that I meet. Wild. And there’s also been a huge… A lot of the Italian food history of the past 75 years was influenced by Americans and Italian Americans, people who left Italy and then came back during World War II, let’s say, and brought other influences.

And so, as much as the, you know… And Italians are kind of very invested in this mythology. In the podcast series about the cookbook, I interview a food historian named Lucas Shazari in Bologna, who’s kind of debunking a lot of these myths. So you know, to me,

Like this combination of the romanticism with the fact that it’s actually a more dynamic cuisine than it gets credit for, to me, was like super interesting to learn. One fact that I talk about all the time is that Italy as a nation state, as like a sovereign nation

That’s unified didn’t exist until like the late 1800s. And so, you’re getting all of these disparate cultures that, you know, especially around. Let’s talk about the rise of fascism on the podcast. Do we have to? But that’s a big part of,

It’s why we view a lot of Americana foods as we do as well. Sure. Is this idea of building one identity for a nation. And then, you realize that everything is so much more diverse and complicated than you actually think. But I was asking this question because you break,

Well, I’d say a lot of rules that Italian people would say are rules in your cookbook, which it’s in a really beautiful way. You have a recipe for, you know, a doll with macaroni in it, which is fantastic. Kimchi carbonara. Kimchi carbonara. And that’s also how I think most chefs cook at home-

For sure. Is that like, “Hey, I have pasta and I have these leftovers.” I know I made like a Thai yellow curry, and I had a lot of leftover liquids without solids, and I had, you know, some spaghetti in the fridge. Yeah. And I was like,

“Well, I’m finishing that in the yellow curry sauce. And I’m putting some par on it.” And it was great. So tell us about like, breaking those, what some would call, rules. Well, I mean, I think you’re right Josh though, that’s just how a lot of chefs come up with ideas.

That’s just how a lot of regular home cooks- Sure. End up creating things. Sure, absolutely. That’s a big part of how cuisine evolves. There’s so much focus on chefs and restaurants. But a lot of cuisine just evolves in kitchens all over the place when people just end up

With two ingredients in the fridge and decide to mix them together. True. And especially as America has become more diverse over the past 50 years, and more different cuisines have gained wider acceptance and assimilated into culture. I think it’s just happening more and more in-home kitchens without anybody necessarily saying,

“I’m gonna come up with something quote-unquote new.” And I’ve been very inspired by, I love, there’s a book came out a couple years ago called “Indian-ish” by Priya Krishna. Great book, yeah. And she talks, you know? It’s a great book. And you know, she mashes up a lot of Indian flavors

With quote-unquote, “American dishes.” And there’s been more books that are showcasing the same kind of perspective. Eric Kim’s Korean American, a writer named Krrish Busha has a book coming out soon called “Amrikaan” that’s, you know? Friend of the show. I love her. Saag paneer lasagna just like off the hook.

So, you know, and it’s the same thing for me. I’m like you Josh, yesterday, I had leftover tortellini in the fridge, I had some leftover doll. I’m gonna mix these together. And so, you know, to me, I think that on one hand, yes,

I’m sure some people will see the recipes in this cookbook and think that I’m sort of kicking down the door of Italian tradition. But I think in reality it’s just sort of a natural extension of the way that cuisine evolves, especially in America.

And I think it’s the way a lot of people are cooking today. And so that it feels very natural to me. Yeah, 100%. And I think so many people look at the rules of pasta and saucing. Yeah. And they think- Yeah. At least, I do. They think it’s just arbitrary gatekeeping coming from,

You know? There’s levels to it. I’m sure There’s hundred levels, but I think a lot of it is based on these like universalisms that we find in food. Like, you were talking about the mapo tofu, which mapo tofu, one of my favorite freaking foods in the world. That’s really good, yeah.

Texture very similar to regu bolognese, right? And so, also people, they’re like, “Asian noodles aren’t pasta and pasta aren’t noodles, et cetera.” But it’s really separated by either one or none ingredients, right? A lot of wheat-based noodles are made via the same process. And so it’s like everything’s sort of one organic globule,

And everybody just wants delicious chewy starch covered in lovely sauce. I wanna talk about pesto. Talk about pesto. Let’s do it. You know what it is about pesto? Pesto just means muddled up in a little bowl, right? You just take something in a mortar and pestle,

And you just bash it up and stuff. Wait, that’s like the etymology of pesto. Like pesto Like pestal? Oh, maybe. Oh, actually that’s. I don’t know. Oh, I thought that’s what you were saying. No, I’m just talking. You’re the etymology guy. I’m just here shooting the S-H-I-T.

Actually, I have a section on pesto in my book, and even I hadn’t put that together. I think that literally it means pounded or crushed. Well, that makes sense, mortar and pestle. But you’re right. I mean, you’re probably right that it comes from the same etymology. Wow. Yeah, pestos.

It’s a pound or crush. Well, there you go. Look at that. Etymology with Nicole. Nicole, you’re the smartest pesto. You know what I don’t love? I don’t like whenever there’s like red pestos and white pestos. To me, pesto always has to be green. And I just don’t understand why there’s like

Different colors of pestos now. I don’t like it. I just want my pestos to be green. How do you guys feel about that? Josh, you wanna you wanna start? I mean. I made a lovely red pesto the other other day. But I just think it’s whack.

My fiance Juliet, we had a good time. I just think it’s whack. And then we ate it and we’re like, “Mm, I wish this was green.” Right. See. So you’re kind of right. I mean, to me, Nicole, I feel like, you know? And I have a section in the cookbook

Called the “Presto Pesto Formula.” And it’s just a way to take almost any combination of nuts, herbs, maybe cheese, maybe garlic, and turn it into pesto. And that’s really, it’s the kind of thing where like if I got a, some arugula in the fridge that’s been there

For a couple days, just turn it into pesto. Yes, most pestos end up being green because they usually have herbs or some kind of, which makes them green. But to me, like if you’re mashing it up and it tastes good, you know, I don’t think, you know,

I think technically you kind of argued against your own case, Nicole. No, I didn’t. Because you pointed out that pesto just means pounded or crushed. But it needs to be green. I just can’t. Whenever I look. I don’t think pesto means green. If it’s not Geneve pesto,

Nicoles grandmother will roll over in her grave. I just feel passionate about, like, it is just whenever I go to a place and it’s like, “Oh, this is a pesto.” And then I see like, it’s not green, it just hits a nerve in my brain where I’m like, “Hmm, there’s a disconnect.”

And I guess I just haven’t, my brain hasn’t caught up to my heart or my heart hasn’t cut up to my brain in that aspect. To me, carbonara should have chicken breast, American bacon, mushrooms, and peas, and heavy cream. And I swear that was my first introduction to carbonara.

And it is still a flavor combination that I crave. I understand it is not traditional Italian carbonara. Yeah, peas and carbonara piss off a lot of people, but who cares? They sure do. Dan, I’m curious, did you have any failed experiments, especially in relation to the shape of the pasta

And the sauce while writing this book? Like, what’s the worst thing you made? Ooh, the worst thing. There was an attempt. I had this idea ’cause my wife and I are both sort of, our lineages where there were Eastern European Jewish, and her family, her parents came from Czechoslovakia.

So there are a lot of… I thought it’d be nice to include a little bit of that heritage. And there’s a lot of noodle dishes in central and Eastern Europe that are sort of like cottage cheese with like crushed nuts. Some of them are even sweet. They’re like cinnamon and sugar.

I grew up on so much noodle kugel, man. Oh, my god. There you go. So you know. I’m so sorry. And so, I thought like, what if we could take some kind of concept like that and sort of adapt it, or do something new and different.

And it just kind of like it never came together. But there was another one, you know, I tested a sirloin ragu, sort of like an upscale tomato-based meat sauce. And it was very good, but it took almost two hours to make. And when I ate it, I was like, “This is good.”

But it tastes like a slightly better version of a tomato-based meat sauce that I’ve had 1000 times. And not only did I cut it from the cookbook, but I made a declaration in that moment. I said, “I’m not gonna put any tomato-based sauce in this book unless it’s either very different

From anything I’ve had before or ridiculously easy.” So that actually inspired me to include in the book a jarred tomato sauce decision tree. I love it. Because I think that, ’cause to me, like there’s so many good jarred sauces out there. The world does not need me to give you

Another recipe for marinara. Bless you. You are correct. So just go buy a really good jar of sauce. But then I give you this decision tree: you wanna make it heartier; you wanna make it spicier; you wanna make it more savory; you wanna add meat; you wanna, you know, add cream.

And there’s all these different paths you can follow to make it a little different, add some, you know, zhuzh it up. So that failed. Sirloin ragu led to the jarred tomato sauce decision tree. That’s incredible. I have said on record that- I want one of those. I can’t beat Rao’s. Yeah. I can’t.

I’ve made my own. I’ve labored over tomato sauce. The Marcella Hazan sauce of course is very fun to make. It’s iconic. It’s fantastic. It’s iconic. But I can’t beat Rao’s. Me either. I’m curious. I think we’ve come to the point in the discussion. We have to decide if there is the possibility

Of one universal sauce to rule them all. Okay, we did this stand street a little bit. We didn’t even talk about spaghetti and meatballs. What? We didn’t even talk about spaghetti and meatballs. What do you wanna talk about spaghetti and meatballs about? We just didn’t even talk about it.

We didn’t talk about it a lot. What do you mean? We didn’t talk about like my favorite? I love beagley. Beagley is maybe my favorite pasta. Okay. We didn’t get to talk about beagley With what sauce? What? Whateves. Actually, no. We didn’t have maybe my favorite pasta dish.

You’re talking about Eastern European heritage favorite pasta dish at all time in Los Angeles is a chef named Steve Sampson used to have a restaurant called Soto. He did a- Oh, my god, I love Soto. The chicken liver, the rigatoni with chicken liver ragu. Yeah, it was really good. And great must was-

That was really good. To this day, one of the best things that I’ve ever eaten. And the chicken livers great. And he is not made that dish since. And I’m bummed about it. Steve, you gotta make that dish if you’re listening. But no, let’s talk about the idea of universal sauce.

We did an episode. Is there a best universal dipping sauce? We did. Yeah. And we decided of course. What did we decide on? Listen. What did we decide? We can’t remember anything. Hot sauce and mayonnaise. Oh, yeah. That was. If you need one, you dip an egg rolls. No, no.

You’re dipping chicken wings. You’re mixing up the titles. I think it was just what’s the best sauce? Yeah, it was dipping. There was a silent dipping in that title. Was there? Yeah, because it wasn’t sauce for pasta. Okay, whatever. Okay, sure. We weren’t arguing that you should put orange mayonnaise on spaghetti.

But damn. One sauce to roll them all on pasta. What is it? I guess, I would have to say you’d want it to have. So, in the book, I come up with these two ways of classifying all sauces. Two criteria, you know, to define so that you can pair sauces and shapes.

And there’s two properties of sauce you wanna look at. One is viscosity. Okay. Basically like, thickness, stickiness. The other is chunk factor, which is how many chunks and how big are the chunks. So I think that a good, you know, if you really want a universal sauce, it needs to have good viscosity,

It needs to have some thickness and stickiness that adheres to the pasta. And if you have especially big chunks that just, it’s gonna be difficult. I mean, it can be done, but I think that probably, but you know, mac and cheese feels like too easy of an answer.

I think I might have to say vodka sauce because it’s thick. It’s got a nice viscosity and it’s got a low chunk factor, it’s sort of all purpose. It can kind of work with any pasta shape. I don’t think you’re ever gonna go wrong with it.

What did you? It was gonna be vodka sauce. Insane! We all independent. But just for the sake of being a little different. My favorite pasta sauce isn’t even a sauce at all. It’s just butter and some sort of hard cheese on the top. That’s a phenomenal answer.

And that’s my favorite sauce. That’s it. That’s it. That’s it. Maybe a chili flake. Maybe an anchovy. No, no, no, no. I’m not doing the anchovy. Just spicy, fatty pasta. That’s it. That’s my answer. You’re a pasta olio e aglio girl too, right? No, I’m not.

I don’t like it. I don’t hate it. Look at us learning new things about each other. I know I didn’t think it was possible. I don’t think it was possible. No, I actually don’t like it. I don’t either. There’s something that’s like a little bit too sparse about it for me.

I need something big. Something anxious. Yeah. Yeah, vodka sauce. Exactly what I came to as well because you know, you get a little bit of that cream to cut through all that tomato if that gets boring. Pesto is, I think a deceptively like quite aggressive flavor.

And even for myself, I don’t always crave it. I was gonna say ragu, then you cut out vegetarians. You know what I mean? But I think it’s gotta be vodka. Also has alcohol in it. Also, it has alcohol in it. Yeah, yeah, it’s sick. There you go.

No, I’m gonna say classic American carbonara, heavy cream, bacon, chicken, mushrooms and peas. That’s the best pasta saucer with them all. Take that Italy. Let’s come up some engagement in the comments. Let’s get those over. There you go. Trade Coffee is here to help you make better coffee at home.

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And some pick me ups are becoming more of a need than a want by this point. You know what I’m saying, Nicole? I do. I do. Just a little pick me up energy there. A bright spot of my week, Nicole. I can spend my Trade deliveries. I do love Trade.

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It’s like robust. It’s not too bitter. ‘Cause, here’s the thing, I don’t love those dark roast, right? Really? You get those super dark French roast. I love dark roast. No, to me, it reads way too bitter on the palette. No way. I want something light, bright.

Gimme that little caffeinated rush to start the day, and something that’s not gonna like weigh on my palate all the time. Not make me feel like I gotta brush my teeth after, you know? Really? I just got this great coffee. It’s called Nebula by Mother Tongue. And it’s so roasty toasty, delicious.

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That’s drinktrade.com/hotdog for a free bag and up to $15 off select subscription plans. Drinktrade.com/hotdog. “A hotdog is a Sandwich” is sponsored by BetterHelp. What’s the first thing you’d do if you had an extra hour in your day, Nicole? I’ve been spending a lot of extra hours in my day.

You know what I’ve been doing? Hot girl walks. I’ve been going on hot girl walks. It has been such an incredible thing for both my mental health and my physical health. I’ll put on either a podcast I love or a new genre of music to an old album that I wanna revisit.

That’s awesome. I’ll take an hour in the middle of my day. Sometimes it take my shirt off ’cause I like to absorb the sun, but I will walk around and I’ll clear my head, and it’s been genuinely transformative for me. That’s awesome. That Vitamin D’s gotta be good for you too.

Gimme that D. A lot of us spend our lives wishing we had more time. The question is time for what? If time was unlimited, how would you use it? The best way to squeeze that special thing into your schedule is to know what’s important to you and to make it a priority.

And I’ve really started prioritizing my hot girl walks. And Nicole, I’m hotter and more well adjusted than ever. But therapy can also help you find what matters to you so you can do more of it. Yeah, having a professional to talk to about difficult challenges, and lifestyle adjustments was the key

To my relationships growing and thriving. So if you are thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It’s entirely online. It’s designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Yeah, just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. And switch therapist anytime for no additional charge.

Learn to make time for what makes you happy with BetterHelp. Visit better help.com/hotdog today to get 10% off your first month. That’s BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com/hotdog. All right, Nicole and Dan, we’ve heard what you and I have to say. Now, it’s time to find out what other wacky ideas

Are rattling out there in the universe. It’s time for a segment we call. Opinions are like casserole. You didn’t hit him with the. Dan, why didn’t you sing? Sorry, I wasn’t ready. Do you wanna do it again? Karaoke pastor? Yeah, let’s do it one more time. It’s time for. Opinions are like casserole.

So we have had our audience, they have written in their hottest takes about pasta on Twitter. And last time we asked for one of these is when we were recording with Dr. Mike, and we asked for their hot takes about like food and nutrition. We got like 12 responses.

I had 250 responses about hot pasta takes in about 10 minutes. Wow. So we have tried to pick. People have opinions. So many. Nicole, you wanna go first? Sure. PunkishGhost_ says, “Lasagna is the worst pasta dish. It tastes burnt, it’s chewy. And the sauce I have to spend hours working on

Isn’t worth it. And I’ve made lasagna that everyone loved, but I didn’t. It’s just an over-glorified casserole.” How do you feel about that? I partly agree and partly disagree. I mean, look, I think if you don’t like the taste of it or the texture that’s sort of like, you know,

Hate the player or not the game. I mean, like, that’s not the fault of the platonic ideal of lasagna. It’s the fault of the person who prepared it. Or maybe it’s just not your thing. That said, I do agree. And I do say in my cookbook that lasagna is too much work.

It’s not worth the work. As soon as you cut it up and start eating it, it falls apart. And so you’ve lost the layers that you’ve worked so hard to craft. You could just make baked ziti, and it’ll take you a 10th of the time,

And end up with the same flavors coming together. If you’re gonna take the time to do lasagna. In my book, I have a recipe for a spinach artichoke dip lasagna pinwheels. Oh, hell yeah. And you make a filling. And it’s not quite as heavy as regular lasagna. It’s vegetarian.

You do a lemon bechamel with chopped artichokes and cheese. You roll it up in the lasagna, and then stand up those pinwheels in a pan, cover with a bit of cheese, put that in the oven. It looks stunning. It stays together and holds its shape in a way.

And it’s got a unique combination of flavors. Yum. That sounds so good. What’s your lasagna? Lasagna. Well, since I make it on the show so much, I’ve like learned the art. Why do you make it so much on the show? We make lasagna on the show so much. It’s crazy.

We have learned how to, you know, cook a good lasagna. And I’m proud of our lasagna talents. But I’ve recently seen a recipe where you just do it on a sheet pan. You just take it. And you do it on a sheet pan. Like, you take. Oh, is it

The two layer lasagna? Yeah. That’s not a lasagna. That’s not lasagna. I’ve never made it before. Stop. I’m speaking! I’ve never made it before and I’ve never eaten it before. But something about it seems so attractive and less effort. But same texture in your mouth. So I think this PunkishGhost_

Is being a little bit of a drama queen. But I mean, there’s ways around it. If you don’t like the art of making lasagna, there’s ways around it to get the same lasagna feel without all of that effort like in wheels. I think a key that we’re glossing over here

Is I’ve made lasagna that everyone loved, but I didn’t. I think what happened is they had a sort of like postpartum lasagna, you know, depression. It’s part of lasagna depression. I know, I think, ’cause I’ve had this happen with a lot of things that I’ve cooked where I put so much-

That’s so many people. I put so much energy into it. And then, by the time that it’s done, and I don’t draw corollaries to childbirth here. ‘Cause, that was a terrible that way. Why are you looking at me when you say that? No. ’cause I. Dan’s the one with kids.

Not me. Dan, do you have kids? No, I’m saying it. Anyways, the point is, you end up resenting it, right? Like you end up resenting the food that you’ve made and everyone’s telling you how much they love it. And you’re covered in sweat. Your eyes are burning.

Do you remember the last lasagna that I made, Nicole? That you made? ‘Cause, I brought in a lot. Because- Oh, you made the. I didn’t have the right pan. I wanted to do one of those. It’s when you slice it, you see all the layers,

You tip it over, you serve it on its side. I was trying to do like the 100 layer lasagna thing just for fun. I like taking up triple. Right, right, right. And I wanted to make it modeled after Musaka. So I had eight whole roasted eggplants layered in there.

Oh, my God! I had 22 layers of saffron fresh pasta sheets that I rolled out. My fiance was out of town, Dan. And this is how I party. I’m up till one in the morning layering this, the bechamel, all that. I wanted to get the, what are they called?

Like, the eighth hotel pans that are very, very long but tall. Yeah. I only had double that. So I had to fill the whole thing to get the shape that I wanted to end up being like 16 and a half pounds. And I brought it in and served it to everybody at work.

My point is, a proper lasagna should be like a wedding cake. It is a thing that you have like, you know, once, I was gonna say once every five years, I hope I don’t get divorced, but you know what I mean. Please don’t. Right. Yeah. It takes a lot of effort,

But it could be worth it in the end. Or just, yeah, don’t make it make big seed. Yeah, but I think you made a great point, Josh. You’re right that sometimes when you put a ton of work into something, it’s hard to enjoy it because you’re just like, you’re also like,

When you’re in the kitchen cooking that long, you end up nibbling on ingredients, you don’t really realize that you’re doing it. And that also will kind of dull your appetites. You’re not at like prime appetite at the moment of eating. And that also can lessen the enjoyment.

I got 1200 pounds of mots in my system. I don’t need pasta at this point, all right. We got another opinion from at Excelsior. “Angel hair pasta is a disgraced, just mushy as hell. No bite, no dish is made better by the addition of angel hair pasta.”

I mean, did I send these in? I feel like all these people are speaking my language. I agree. Angel hair. Everyone’s always like, “Oh, you just have to cook it right.” I mean, like, the window of cooking angel hair right is like .3 seconds. Yeah.

It’s always mushy. It’s smushes together into a ball. It is just, yeah, you know? It’s ends up kind of slimy. It’s just, yeah. It’s not a good shape. My dad loves angel hair and that’s because he’s old. I feel like nowadays the kids don’t want. Why are you laughing?

It’s so true. Yeah, I feel like- Our parents grew up with angel hair being fancy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had a big moment in the ’80s and ’90s. Yeah. They say it’s coming back, but I’m really trying to prevent that from happening. Yeah, yeah. Something about like angel hair, capellini,

All these like super thin tiny pastas just doesn’t do it for me. Does it for my dad though. Shout out to Morris. He loves Arby’s. I love Arby’s. My dad loves Arby’s. I would take Arby’s over angel hair. My dad is a man of taste.

Dad loves drinking tea. I love your dad’s tea, you know? Me and Morris got a lot in common. I just can’t. I think I had a bit of a breakthrough ’cause I’ve been the same way with angel hair, right? I ate it growing up because my dad was like, “This is fancy.”

So true. Dumped the jar of ragu on the angel hair. But recently, my fiance and I couldn’t decide between making, was it like? Avgolemono or making ramen. So we decided to fuse ’em. And. Okay, you should use the mythical kitchen as your like mad scientist place,

And your home should just be like chill. No, ’cause I don’t. Right, right. I don’t cook in the kitchen anymore. My job is to like answer emails and you know, talk to people. And so I crave these weird cooking projects. Avgolemono ramen, it is not the move. It makes both dishes worse.

But I used angel hair ’cause I was like, well, this is like, you know, a western soup and you know, just a wheat-based pasta. Using angel hair as a soup noodle, ala ramen and then eating it with chopsticks, pretty good if we’re being honest. Mm, okay. And again,

It’s, you know, I think the only difference in ingredients between a ramen noodle and like an angel hair would be sodium bicarbonate, I believe. For the chew. For the chew, okay? But, you know, that was my most pleasant angel hair eating experience I’ve had in a long time.

But still no need for it. All right, let’s see what we got here. Hmm, Allison Burke says, “I hate pasta with big holes. Ziti rigatoni, big hole equals big no. It’s too slippery in my mouth and creates a double noodle layer that I don’t need. Small holes like elbows are cavatappi are perfect.”

All right, how much time do I have to respond to this? Like, I’m gonna give you one minute. Two minutes starts now. I’m gonna give you one minute. Talk now. I resent her lumping together ziti and rigatoni, okay? When you have pasta with a tube, there’s big tubes, medium tubes, and little tubes.

When you have a big tube like a rigatoni, when you bite into it, it goes flat. And you essentially have a double layer of pasta, which is very tooth sinkable. When you have a very, very narrow tube like a bucatini, when you bite into it, because the tube is so narrow,

It has a lot of structural strength and it will spring back against bite force. So that’s fantastic in the sense that it is springy. Rigatoni fantastic in the sense that it is chewy. Ziti and penne the medium sized tubes, those are the ones that suck because they’re not big enough

To go flat into two layers, and they’re not small enough to spring back against bite force. All they’re really good enough to do is to spring off your fork as you attempt to get them into your mouth. And so, I think big tubes or small tubes are great, medium tubes suck.

I think you used your whole minute. I rest my case. The single thing to add. How do we follow? I might have spent just a little time thinking about this. I love rigatoni. Rigatoni is the best pasta of shape of all time. I think rigatoni is the best of the sort of the,

You know, the five or 10 supermarket basic shapes that you can get in basically any store in America. Rigatoni would be my go-to. Do you have your favorite like, obscure pasta shape that you love? Like, one of the weird ones that you see on a menu? Can I get it from a store?

No, like only you go to a restaurant. You see? Is it called the caramel? Oh, the caramel. Caramel is probably my favorite. ‘Cause, it looks like a little snack. I don’t know that one. I’m gonna Google that now. It goes by another name. Agnolotti? No, it’s a filled pasta.

It looks like a little rolled caramel. Oh. It looks almost like a garganelli, maybe? Caramel esi. There’s another name for it. Jules and I made it the other day. And she rolled the pasta. And you did great. You did so good. Baby, the pastas look perfect. Dave, do you have a favorite like,

Obscure pasta shape that people wouldn’t know? I mean, this caramel looks good. I like, I like shapes that are in that similar vein. I love casarecce. Which is sort of like, if you imagine like a flat square of pasta, and then you start to like roll it up like you’re rolling a joint,

But then you roll it halfway back the other direction. And then it kind of twists. And it’s one of the few mass produced shapes where not every piece in the package is identical. And so, I like that variety. Strozzapreti, which means the pre-strangler is very similar to casarecce.

And I love both of those shapes. They have nooks and crannies. People always wanna talk about tubes for holding sauce, but tubes don’t hold sauce all that well. I think that nooks, and crannies, and twists, and turns tend to hold sauce more effectively than tubes. Interesting. Mandilli de saea.

Ooh. They call it like handkerchief pasta. It’s just rough torn. That’s almost like we talked about the torn lasagna sheets. Yeah. But there was only like one restaurant in LA and. Yeah. The Factory. It’s just called pasta. No, not, oh, the old spaghetti factory. No, no. The green handkerchief pasta.

Yeah, it was covered in a pesto. Ooh, I’m looking at this. I never heard of this shape. It’s almost looks like, right? Like, is it like lasagna but cut into squares without the ruffles? It’s not even cut though. Just torn. Willy-nilly the ends of a grandma slash you know, a culinary school grad

In the back of that kitchen tossing it in the water. But I love the variety. I love that. And I love how it just coats the mouth. And also, it reminds me of my favorite Vietnamese dish Banh cuon. And I think that’s what I’m really after, is I just love Banh cuon.

I think you just love Vietnamese food a lot. I love Vietnamese food. All right, we got one more opinion. Cooking pasta like rice with the water barely covering it is goated. The water boils quicker. The starch is more concentrated, leading to better adhered sauces. You don’t need six cups of water

To boil one cup of macaroni. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s probably true that we sometimes put more water than we need to. You know, in my cookbook, I wanted to have standardized measurements. So I just told everyone, for a pound of pasta, four quarts of water, two tablespoons of kosher salt.

‘Cause, that’s just like easy measurements. But I think it’s true. As long as it coats it well, it’s fine. That being said, a lot of recipes do call for adding pasta water. And if you use so little water, then it may be a struggle.

If you need to get like a cup and a half or two cups of pasta water out once it’s all cooked, that could be a struggle. That’s a good point. Totally. There’s a recipe going around on the internet’s, pasta all’assassina. Oh, yeah, the torched pasta at the bottom.

Oh, this is in my cookbook, spaghetti all’assassina. This is one of the dishes that I went to Italy to research. So cool. I went to the restaurant where it was invented. That’s cool. that’s a really unique actual like cooking technique on it, right? Yeah, so, basically, like, they take spaghetti,

They put it in a spicy tomato sauce, and you cook it down, and cook it down till the sauce turns to like a spicy tomato paste. And you keep frying in the pan until it turns charred and crispy crunchy. It is fantastic. The flavor, I mean, I’m a big texture eater.

So the fact that it’s crispy and crunchy, or as the Italians would say crunchy is really special. And they only make it in the City of Bari. And I interviewed this 80-year-old chef who was one of the inventors of it. And it was super cool. That’s awesome.

God, that’s incredible. We gotta go to Italy. When are we gonna do our live, laugh, love trip to Italy together? I don’t know. I’m down whenever. Yeah. You never wanna take vacation. You’re just like, you know what it is. You need to take vacations with your fiance like three more times.

Yeah. And then we can go on a trip. That’s good point. That’s a good point. Hey, I wanna talk about pasta water real quick. ‘Cause, I. I love Pasta Well, here’s the thing. I think it’s a scam. I hate it. I don’t think we should even talk about it anymore.

Pasta water? Because here’s the thing that I found out. Do you remember when we made cacio e pepe? Yeah. And I went in and I was like, “I’m not gonna practice this, but I believe that it’ll work with my new technique involving a protein shaker.”

Oh, you should tell ’em about your new technique. So, cacio e pepe, I had tried to make it several times before using the pasta water to emulsify, yada, yada. But I started to think that the starchiness of your pasta water is so dependent on too many variables

That how could you possibly, you know, adjust for that. And I surmise that all you’re really after is starch and water. So I’m gonna put some flour in some water and create a slurry. And I am going to finish my pasta in a floury water slurry that I shook in a protein shaker.

And then, I’m going to use the latent heat from that flour slurry plus the particulate emulsifiers from the flour and use that to melt the cheese. And it was a perfectly emulsified, creamy cacio e pepe. It sure was. And right? The proof is in the pudding.

Italians were really mad about that on the internet. But they like the flowers raw. I’m like, you watched me boil this. What are we talking about? Right. Is there any merit to that? Tell me I’m good. No, I mean, I think everything you’re saying makes sense to me.

I mean, I think, look, I think that pasta water also has a nice flavor to it. It does have flavor from the pasta. So, but in terms of the science of the emulsification and the thickening, and the starch, like, I agree that there’s more than one way to get that end result.

There’s a pasta water candle I really want from D.S. & Durga. Get the heck outta here. Yeah, it smells like pasta water. That’s incredible. That’s genius. I need that. I need that. I want that too now. Do we have time for one more? No. Oh, we’re supposed to wrap. We’re done.

Oh, do you hold up the sign? Yes. Oh. ’cause it’s strictly on the screen, but Dan’s face is on the screen. That’s okay. No, but. I’m learning. I’m learning. I told Jamie that you do not look at the little clipboard. Jamie, I’m so sorry. I don’t look at the little clipboard.

That’s okay. I look at it and I do this. It’s a good clipboard. I give her a harsh blink to know that I have received that information. All right, and then we’re gonna get one clean in. Dan, that’s so interesting. On that note,

Thank you all for listening to “A hotdog is a Sandwich.” We got new audio-only episodes every Wednesday, and a video version here on YouTube every Sunday. If you wanna be featured on opinions are like casseroles, hit us up at 833-Dog-Pod1. Our number again is 833-Dog-Pod1. And of course, make sure to check out

Dan’s brand new cookbook, “Anything’s Pastable.” 81 inventive pasta recipes for saucy people. That’s us. And you can see Dan and a special guest on his tour March 15th through May 2nd. More info at sportfold.com/tour. Dan responds is written in the script. Dan, thank you so much. It’s been a long day, Dan.

Tell the people where they can find you. Well, you can find this “Sporkful” podcast wherever you get your podcasts. “Anything’s Pastable” the book, wherever you get books. You can find my pasta Cascatelli in some stores around the country, or you can order it online at sfoglini.com. That’s S-F-O-G-L-I-N-I.com.

Dan sure did respond. This script was great. I told you. There you go. For real, Dan. I’ve been a huge fan of the “Sporkful” for a long time. I mean, I’ve you’ve gotta been podcasting for 14, 13, 14 years at this point. Yeah, since 2010.

But honestly, man, like you do incredible work over there. Tell incredible stories, have incredible guests on. And thank you so much for taking the time to be here. No, it’s my pleasure. Thank you so much. And I look forward to having you guys on the “Sporkful” one of these days soon.

Oh, yeah. We’ll be around. Awesome.