578- Anything’s Pastable: Eat Sauté Love

This week we’re featuring an episode from The Sporkful’s series on the creation of “Anything’s Pastable,” Dan Pashman’s new pasta cookbook.

Dan talks with Roman about how this massive project came to be and all the design decisions required to put together a cookbook.

And then, in part two of “Anything’s Pastable,” Dan embarks on an epic trip across Italy in search of lesser-known pasta dishes — and to learn about the evolution of pasta more broadly. He starts in Rome, where food writer Katie Parla (https://katieparla.com/) reveals a shocking truth about pasta. Then an Italian food historian (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Discovery-of-Pasta/Luca-Cesari/9781639363162) challenges Dan’s thinking about carbonara. Finally, he heads south to meet a chef who was there when a regional specialty called spaghetti all’assassina (“assassin’s spaghetti”) was invented. All of this leads Dan to wonder: What does evolution look like in a food culture that’s so often depicted in sepia tones? And what’s his place in that process?

Preorder Dan’s cookbook today (https://www.sporkful.com/anythings-pastable/) (including signed copies), and see if he’s visiting a city near you on his tour of book signings and live podcast tapings (https://www.sporkful.com/tour/) with special guests! Follow Dan on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/thesporkful) to see photos and videos from the Anything’s Pastable journey.

Anything’s Pastable: Eat Sauté Love (https://99percentinvisible.org/?p=42160&post_type=episode)

this is 99% invisible I’m Roman
Mars pasta is one of the greatest foods
ever invented but it can get a little
predictable especially the pasta dishes
we make for ourselves whether it’s
another night of spaghetti or a slightly
jazzed up fetuccini Alfredo it can get
boring making the same dish over and
over our friend Dan pashman took note of
this conundrum and decided to Kickstart
a pasta Revolution I The Creator and
host of the sporkful food podcast um the
inventor of the casatelli pasta shape
and author of the new cookbook
anything’s possible for those who aren’t
familiar with the pasta shape that Dan
created it’s called casatelli Dan based
the creation of casatelli on three
metrics first there’s Fork ability which
is how easy it is to get onto your fork
second is sauce ability how readily does
the sauce adhere to the shape and
finally there’s tooth syn ability that’s
one word which is how satisfying it is
to sink your teeth in too I set out to
invent a new shape of pasta that would
hopefully be effective at all three of
my metrics and it took 3 years and a lot
of setbacks and was much harder than I
anticipated and I got a lot of door
slammed in my face uh but the end result
was this shape called casatelli which
has these sort of two parallel Ruffles
that protrude from the main body of it
it’s a short shape And the sauce goes in
between the Ruffles it holds a lot of
sauce it’s got a lot of interesting
textures and it succeeded beyond my
wildest dreams um it’s now in stores
across the country which is still
bananas to me I still buy it in the
store even though I don’t have to cuz I
get so excited when I see it there um it
was named one of Time magazine’s best
inventions of the year it was on the
cover of Time Magazine yeah I mean well
it’s a little weird to be in your 40s
and already know that you probably never
going to top whatever it is you just did
but you know there are worse things to
be known for it’s pretty good inventing
a pasta shape the creation of casatelli
is documented in the spork FS Mission
imposible series which you can find a
link to in the show notes but that is
not why Dan is here today ever since
Dan’s pasta shape went viral and Dan’s
pasta dreams came true a new unexpected
problem emerged well the problem was
that I’m getting photo after photo from
all over the country and all over the
world and 75% of the photos are
casatelli with tomato sauce meat sauce
mac and cheese I mean maybe a couple of
party animals might have made pesto it
was very the the range was very narrow
it just generally made me a little sad
cuz I just felt like there’s so much
more we can be putting on pasta and it
made me realize even for myself like I I
I had fallen into a red sauce rut I just
wanted to show other people and myself
that there’s a lot more that we can and
should be putting on our pasta so that’s
when I had the idea for a cookbook that
cookbook name is anything’s pastable 81
inventive pasta recipes for Saucy people
which is a great title it came out a few
weeks ago and it’s a bit different than
what you’d expect from a pasta cookbook
I set out to try to write a cookbook
that would have no traditional Italian
and pasta sauce recipes in it there is
no recipe for marinara there’s no
bologan there’s no plain old Kat Peppe
or carbonara none of those I’m not
against those dishes I just feel like
the world didn’t need another recipe for
those um so that was really my mission
was a cookbook of pasta sauage with none
of the traditional basic ones that
everyone knows what kind of recipes will
people find in your book so first off
we’re pushing far beyond Italian cuisine
to take inspiration from the many
Cuisines ingredients that I love and
cook with in my own home so that means
kacho Pepe with chili crisp kimchi
carbonara uh Kima Bolan the Great Indian
spiced ground meat dish Kima mashed up
with bolones there a dish for a roasted
artichoke and preserved lemon sauce
which is like classic Italian thing is
artichokes and lemon they would do lemon
juice instead we’re doing preserved
lemon which is a North African Middle
Eastern ingredient just adds more
savoriness so often times it’s not
inventing something that’s so out of
left field it’s just taking something
that you know and tweaking it a little
bit to make it new and different the
spork full podcast four part series
about the making of anything’s possible
covers all aspects of the design of the
cookbook from the design of the recipes
to photos of the food to the thought
behind the language used in the recipes
there are a million decisions to be made
I’m sure that 99 Pi listeners probably
are more attuned to the design of a
cookbook than the average person but the
things that I never fully consider that
you have to think about things like all
right you’re going to depict this dish
now look it actually doesn’t require a
ton of talent to make food look
delicious okay like turn on Instagram a
lot of people it but what is difficult
is to present a dish in a way that tells
you something more about the story
behind the food and the person who has
written this book and that is a real
craft and so it’s things like okay
there’s a plate of delicious food what
kind of plate is it on is it a wine
glass is it a pint of beer is it fancy
silverware is the silverware and the pl
setting set just so or is a bit a skew
has a bite been taken out of the food
are there crumbs on the table see I
wanted my the look my book to feel lived
in and real so there’s I wanted crumpled
up napkin here I wanted I wanted a hand
coming in and grabbing something I
wanted a bite taken out because I my
style is accessible I’m not a fancy Chef
I didn’t want it to look like you know
the Four Seasons in the book I wanted to
look like this could be your house I
mean I mean to make a photo look like a
regular person just sprinkled these
crumbs willy-nilly I mean there are
people with tweezers and paint
brushes arranging the crumbs just
so that’s awesome so you hear a lot of
that painstaking work in episode four of
our Series so when you were thinking
about these different creative pasta
recipes um one of your sources of
inspiration was you know some of the
Italian recipes that didn’t make it over
and spread through jars across our
shelves talk about that and like what
led you to go to Italy to do research
other than the fact that that’s such a
great scam man I just hats off right
right you mean I can go to Italy for
work okay so I I wanted to go to Italy
because I could a but also yes I I
wanted to feature some obscure Italian
pasta dishes that I came across in my
initial research that are not known in
America in regions of Italy that are not
often traveled by tourists from the US
and so one of them is called spaghetti
alas sasina that was invented in a city
called Bari in the Southeastern Corner
in the heel of the boot of Italy that’s
this spaghetti cooked in a spicy tomato
sauce until the sauce almost turns to a
paste and you keep pan fry it until the
pasta turns charred and Crispy Crunchy
in Parts golden brown and crispy in
other parts and yet still chewy in in a
third section of Parts you get all these
different incredible textures it’s
phenomenal but you can’t get it outside
Bari but I also wanted to kind of get a
bigger picture view of Italian pasta
culture you know because look when I
invented casatelli people always ask me
what do the Italians think they must
they must be shaking their fist at you
and when I started working on the
cookbook similar question what are the
Italians going to say and I know there
is this sort of stereotype I think to
some degree it’s a bit of a caricature
of these you know of Italians hating any
variation from tradition even though you
could have two grandmas across the
street from each other who cook the same
dish differently I was skeptical that
that Italian food was as set in stone as
the people behind that caricature would
have you believe and so I decided to try
to go to Italy to see for myself and
what you found and and this is the
episode that we’re going to play is that
not only is Italian food Cuisine very
mutable it’s kind of mind-blowingly
recent um the things that we think of as
Italian food that has been exported to
the US it’s it’s really kind of nuts
yeah I’m still my jaws sort of still on
the floor uh first of all Italy only
became a country about 150 years ago
okay yes of course there’s a lot of
history in the region that goes back
much further but it it was only unified
about 150 years ago for a long time and
to some even still like a very Regional
place and and somewhat fractious
um and so the idea that there was one
way to do things you know since the dawn
of time it just doesn’t add up thanks so
much Dan and we’re going to play the
episode thanks Roman today we’re
bringing you the second episode of the
anything’s possible Series where Dan
pashman embarks on a trip to Italy it is
a great episode it is a really fun
project all four episodes of anything’s
possible are available right now from
the spork Ville the anything’s possible
cookbook is available in bookstores now
and if you want to go back and hear how
casatelli came to be the mission
impossible series is linked in the show
notes here’s Dan
pashman previously on anything’s
possible people who come to a cuisine as
Outsiders might feel less beholden to
tradition I think you’re absolutely 100%
wrong
okay I was just thinking about the fact
that I am having so much fun tested all
these recipes Jamie what are your
thoughts how does this whole process
seems like so much work I I’m actually
like you really want to do this
cookbook how many recipes do you want to
have I’m required by my book contract to
have 75 to 100 recipes oh my
god this is my second book and my first
book nobody bought and if no one buys
this book I don’t I’m not going to get a
third
shot this is the spork full it’s not for
Foodies it’s for eaters I’m Dan pashman
each week on our show we obsess about
food to learn more about people people
this is episode 2 of anything’s possible
four-part series giving you the inside
story of the making of my first Cookbook
by the end you’ll never look at a
cookbook the same way again now if you
haven’t listened to part one yet please
go back and start there okay let’s get
into
[Music]
it we’ll pick up where we left off it’s
the spring of 2022 and I’ll push ping
aside my doubts and fully immersing
myself in recipe research and
development a lot of the recipes in my
book will be things that my recipe
developers and I come up with but in
reading through old cookbooks and
talking to people who’ve lived in Italy
I’ve also come across a few obscure
Italian pasta dishes that seem perfect
for my book they’re mostly unknown even
in Italy outside their specific Regions
they’re pretty easy to make and they
contain surprising twists that really
make them stand out from the ones you’ve
seen a million times but these dishes
are so obscure that it’s hard to find
people in America who know how to make
them I decide that if I’m going to do
them right I have to go on a research
trip to Italy my daughter Emily’s
response to that news I think like oh my
God the good pasta is in Italy now like
oh my God Italy qu does have to be in
Italy what’s what’s about what’s so
great about Italy well one great thing
will be that I can taste these little
known dishes in the places they’re from
cooked by the people who know them best
but in addition to researching these
dishes I have a larger goal for this
trip you know everyone jokes about how
resistant Italians are to any deviation
from tradition with casatelli one of the
most common questions I got was what do
the Italians think I could anticipate a
similar question with this cookbook what
do Italians think of ideas I want to try
like kimchi carbonara Mack andal and
fury Kake pesto the obvious answer is
they won’t like it because that’s not
the way it’s always been done but I was
surprised to learn in my research that
one of the pasta dishes I want to go to
Italy to learn about was actually only
invented about 60 years ago the notion
of a new addition to Italy’s pasta
Cannon hadn’t really occurred to me I
just assumed all the Italian pasta
recipes were from ancient times but this
newer dish made me wonder how do
Evolution and Innovation happen in a
food culture that always seems to be
depicted in sepia tones and where does
my book fit into that process with those
questions in mind I bored a flight to
Italy a pleasure to welcome you to Rome
where the correct local time is 7 in the
peak of Summer 2022 I arrive in Rome on
my first day the heat index is 102° when
you walk out the door it feels like like
a wall of rendered Guan chal fat washing
over us it’s it’s really something I’m
about to eat my way across Rome with
food writer Katie parla an American
who’s been living in Italy for 20 years
she’s written multiple cookbooks about
Italian cuisine and gives Food Tours
including to folks like Stanley Tucci
Andrew Zimmer and Action Bronson on
their TV shows Cut here because it’s a
little bit faster we’re walking through
Katie and I head to lunch on the way she
explains that Italian food is very
Regional there are lots of dishes that
are only found in one area and sometimes
in only one town historically Rome has
been one of the few places where
different culinary Traditions have mixed
so it’s a good place to explore my
larger questions of how Italian pasta
culture
evolves we arrive at our first stop Pato
Romano we’re here because the food is
always delicious they do things that
really reflect the location that we’re
in Katie orders us three pasta dish a
salad and some
wine and it’s at this restaurant where
everything changes for me because Katie
drops a pasta bombshell the 20th century
is when Italians start eating pasta
regularly uh some regions still don’t
really consume it in a significant way
at all um and wait you’re telling me
that pasta wasn’t a big thing in Italy
until the
1900s that’s right people in let’s say
basil cata like the region where my
family is from they might have eaten
pasta on a holiday if the duke or the
Noble in that town provided flour there
would be a knowledge that pasta existed
but it wasn’t a daily thing but that’s
like that’s surprising to me I mean that
that makes it a relatively new thing
pasta as part of an Italian national
identity is is a 20th century thing
there was Katie explains that Italy’s
separate regions were just unified into
one country in the late 1800s in the
early 1900s the fascists come to power
and they need to figure out how to feed
a growing population they also want to
unite the people under one nationalist
identity they decide the solution to
both problems is pasta because it’s
cheap and easy to make and it’s already
a staple in some parts of the country so
the fascist government builds pasta
factories in regions where there were
none before including in Rome there’s a
really great Archive
of like fascist propaganda like
everything you can imagine that they’re
trying to promote as elements of a a new
Italian identity and pasta really
figures into that but it’s just it’s
just surprising to me because Italians
are so protective of pasta completely
and they’ll tell you it’s authentic and
we’ve been making this for a long time
but it’s often not totally
accurate something that I’m trying to
sort of figure out how I should go about
with this this cookbook is my pasta
shape has faced a lot of skepticism from
Italians which is fine
understandable that being said like the
fact that that it only has been
basically national dish of Italy for 100
years makes me feel like it’s a space
that that that is actually more open to
new ideas than maybe might seem at first
glance yeah and Italians might reject it
depending on where they’re from but if
it tastes delicious and you keep forcing
them to eat it they can get on
board that evening Katie and I meet up
for dinner at chesare Al cazalet I had
asked her to show me examples of new
ideas in pasta and Rob where’s the
inovation happening so she takes me to
try Chef Leonardo Pia’s deep fried noi
with kacho Pepe sauce TV agent it tastes
like tater tots deep Fri I mean I could
eat deep fried noi every day forever
also I would eat I would dip these in
ranch yes this deep fried noi with kacho
Pepe sauce is incredible and when
Leonardo comes over to our table to chat
he tells me the dish came about because
he has these ingredients in the kitchen
all the time
one day he decided to combine them as he
says this is how a lot of culinary
Evolution
happens after the feast it’s time to
call it a night we accomplished a lot
today Katie we did a lot you’re talking
calorically right the next day Katie and
I meet up for another dinner this time
at a Tratoria called Armando Al Panton
Armando at the pantheon anything else do
you feel the G here is pretty
legendary G
that’s carbonara without eggs so while
that does describe it it implies that
carbonara was first but in fact GRE is
the OG Shepherd’s pasta that’s made with
pepper peino Guan chal they make theirs
with white wine as well and that’s
tossed with pasta and that was around
for gual is cured pork jow similar to
bacon but not so Smoky more Porky the
server brings the grea over to our table
going have potito those are like slabs
of Guan chal yeah all right
this this is outstanding one of my faves
not only is the pasta perfectly tooth
sinkable and the Guan chal perfectly
meaty with Crispy edges and the peino
mounded on top like a perfectly fresh
snowfall but the black pepper they
sprinkle on top is cracked whole pepper
corns earthy and fragrant looking back
it’s probably the single best pasta dish
I ate in Italy as Katie said grea was a
shepherd’s pasta it first appeared in
the Italian Countryside but in the mid
1900s there was a huge migration from
the country into cities that’s where
legend has it grea gave birth to its two
most famous babies and that was around
for a really long time before it’s
enriched with tomato sauce to make a
Matana and then ultimately enriched with
egg in the late 50s and early 60s to
make
carbonara wait carbonara only dates back
to the
1950s Katie’s dropping Bombshells left
and right I always assumed the Roman
emperors ate carbonara turns out my
parents are older and that may not even
be the most shocking thing about
it after three epic meals I say goodbye
to Katie and prepare to leave Rome and
head south but before I tell you more
about my trip I want to dive deeper into
the history of carbonara because it has
a lot to tell us about the evolution of
Italian
food this is Luca chizari he’s a food
writer and historian based in bolognia
last year he published a book called the
discovery of pasta which has a whole
chapter on the history of carbonara I
talked to Luca with the help of an
interpreter named Lilia Peno
bluin we all thought that carbonara had
existed forever and ever since the
Middle Ages today any Italian will tell
you that carbonara is a pasta coated in
a sauce made from Guan chal raw beaten
eggs peino Romano cheese and black
pepper but Lucas says Italians only
coalesced around this recipe in the last
20 years in fact over the course of
carbonara’s history tons of other
ingredients have been used in carbonara
Luca tells me about one recipe printed
in Harper’s Bazaar in
1954 clams chopped clams clams chopped
clams parmesan and and Luka what would
happen if you went into a restaurant or
any Nona’s house in Italy today and said
I would like like traditional
carbonara with chopped clams
please
see would literally take you straight to
a mad house they would put you in
restraints and carry you out to a mad
house for decades cream was another
common addition to carbonara even though
luk says most Italians today would
clutch their canoli at the thought still
they might find the larger idea that
carbonara is so relatively new to be
most scandalous Luca has spent years
pouring through newspaper archives
cookbooks and other pop culture
artifacts to confirm
this before 1949 there’s no trace of a
pasta dish known as carbonara carbonara
Lucas says there were earlier dishes
that might have been forerunners to
carbonara like grea which I mentioned
earlier
based on his research he relased
carbonara likely came about when
American soldiers were in Rome at the
end of World War II American rations of
canned bacon and eggs made their way
into Italian
kitchens and people might have had the
idea of mixing it in with pasta and
probably some cheese and then this dish
became very very popular among the
troops and the American officers because
it was a mix of the most traditional
Italian food that is spaghetti or pasta
and then the flavors of an Anglo
American breakfast and that creates a
bridge between the two sides of the
Atlantic so is it fair to say that
carbonara is a form of culinary
Fusion yeah
la yes it is the ultimate culinary
hybrid par excellence
so carbonara could probably only have
come into existence with contributions
from Americans who were in Italy during
World War II that’s why Luca calls it an
American dish born in Italy in other
words I’m far from the first American to
contribute to pasta’s Evolution but even
when carbonara was created there was not
widespread agreement on what the
ingredients were Luca says old cookbooks
often list the cheese as parmesano
instead of peino and the meat as bacon
or paneta which is basically Italian
bacon instead of Guan chal the very
first recipe printed in Italy had
Panetta and Grier a cheese that’s not
even Italian other recipes had mushrooms
or garlic and there was that Infamous
one with the clams Luca tells me when he
shares his research with Italians some
of them object they insist their
grandmother’s grandmother made carbonara
the exact same way people make it today
but others are open to a New
Perspective the storytelling around
Cuisine is changing some people do start
to say well maybe what we’ve told each
other up until now is not all that
realistic maybe the time has come for us
to listen to those who do research and
uh those who have documents and maybe
the history of our Gastronomy is not as
linear as we’ve always thought it
was so Luca I am writing a cookbook I am
trying to show people that there are a
lot more ingredients
that you can and should put on pasta on
one hand I have a great respect for
Italian food and culture I love Italian
food and culture okay I also want to
play with it in my own way yeah so as I
work on this cookbook as I attempt to do
that what advice do you have for me
oh over Zoom Luca shakes his head and
Wags a finger at me as if to say I don’t
have advice he just has one word of
encouragement and he doesn’t need a
translator
go go
[Music]
yes after talking with Luca I’m feeling
emboldened to put my own spin on pasta
dishes and thinking that maybe Italians
should give their Cuisine more credit
for its continued Evolution which I find
exciting coming up we pick up my Italy
trip when I Journey all the way to the
southern tip of the heel of the
country’s boot to find three pasta
dishes I’ve never seen in an American
restaurant stick
around and now a delicious word from our
[Music]
sponsors welcome back to the sporkful
I’m Dan pashman and I got some excit
news I am taking the sporkful on tour
when my cookbook comes out I’m doing a
series of live podcast tapings and book
signings I’ll be in conversation with
some incredible folks hitting New York
Long Island Chicago the Twin Cities
Atlanta Miami DC Philly Boston La San
Francisco Seattle and still more to come
for all the details and the full list of
my special guests go to Spork full.com
SL tour okay back to Italy over several
days in Rome I learned a lot of crucial
information and ate a lot of pasta but
now it’s time to move on I board a train
to the region of pulia as I travel South
Italy’s mountains and Hills flatten the
air becomes Dusty there are palm trees
and cacti I spend a lot of time on the
ride trying to figure out whether Italy
has actual deserts but it proves
challenging because Google refuses to
believe I don’t mean to be searching for
Italian
desserts after more than 6 hours I
arrive in the city of leche in the south
Eastern corner of Italy final
destination of this journey even if
you’ve never been to Italy you’ve heard
of Rome Florence Venice Milan Sicily
Tuscany the Amalfi Coast leche is not
near any of those places there’s not
enough water to sustain livestock which
means there’s no Dairy and almost no
meat so the food here is very different
from the rest of Italy and from the
Italian Classics most Americans know
which makes it perfect for my cookbook I
meet sylvestro sylvestor who runs a
cooking school in leche called the a
table
Bono oh wow this is such a cool room
sylvestro was born in Italy grew up in
America then moved back to Italy as an
adult he became a student and teacher of
what’s called cuchina POA meaning the
cuisine of poverty peasant food poor
people historically were forced to eat a
lot of greens course see a lot of
legumes the the pig of the lento is
actually probably the chickpea or or the
lentil lots and lots and lots of legumes
so where other Italians might be eating
pruto and mozzarella people in the
salento who traditionally eaten legumes
which grow well in dry climates these
legumes form the basis of the two dishes
I’ve come across in my research that
I’ve journeyed to sylvestro cooking
school to learn about one dish is chichu
Tria which combines deep fried pasta and
boiled pasta in a chickpea broth
sylvestro makes it for me and it’s super
simple but also kind of
mind-blowing that is so good the
combination of the crispy and chewy
pasta textures is transcendent the next
dish is fa choria a puree of fav beans
and chikory which is a bitter Green in
leche they serve it just like that a
puree often with bread for dipping but
my recipe developer Katie leair AKA
super Nona lived and cooked here in Pula
and suggested something pretty
revolutionary which I run by sylvestro
so the idea with fa
choria this may be controversial
but we are thinking
about adapting it into a pasta dish what
do you think of that change the name or
or or inspired by or that sort of thing
right playing with something this is a
dish and say uh I I’ve improved this for
you jimie Oliver has this problem all
the time he comes to Italy and I’m but I
put meatballs in and he expect he’s like
like a dog who expects that you love the
fact that he chewed your slippers right
there’s no value of being reinterpreted
when it’s it’s already perfect how we
name the recipes is something I’ve
actually thought a lot about during this
project you know I’m doing a recipe for
kimchi carbonara and I think calling it
carbonara is fair game it’s carbonara
with one ingredient added
but in the case of 5H aoria I do get
what sylvestro is saying it isn’t a
pasta dish at all so while Katie and I
will make it into a pasta dish we’re not
going to claim that it is 5H aoria we’ll
give it its own name and say it’s
inspired by 5H aoria so should I show
you how to make this yeah let’s let’s do
it sylvestro and I make the traditional
version of the dish which will give me a
reference point for the pasta I’ll
develop with Katie he finishes it with
what a recipe writer might call a
drizzle of olive oil but in reality is
multiple glugs of it the olive oil is
pooling in the bottom of the Bowl here
and and it does not feel like too much
because it’s not just like a little bit
of lubrication it’s like an ingredient
when I put a bite of this into my mouth
I am tasting a lot of olive oil the fava
beans are rich and creamy the chory is
crunchy and bitter and the olive oil is
peppery and herbaceous I can’t wait to
taste this over
pasta my journey to one of the farthest
corners of Italy has been worth it while
the two dishes I came here to research
will still require a lot of recipe
testing and development before they’re
ready to go into the book I’ve confirmed
that they’re really special and I can’t
wait to share
them from leche I travel an hour north
to another city in pulia Bari this is
where I’ll have my first taste of a dish
called spaghetti
alasa spaghetti alasa literally means
assassin’s spaghetti it’s spaghetti
cooked in spicy tomato sauce pan fried
until the pasta turns charred and Crispy
Crunchy like chicher Tria it’s another
dish that incorporates crispy fried
pasta although this is pan fried it’s
only made the city of Bari and I am
incredibly excited about its
unconventional combination of textures
and flavors all right taking my first
taste of spaghetti
Alina it smells burnt and tomato e
minutes after getting off the train I’m
sitting at a restaurant called guo
Panzer a friend from Bari told me this
place has his favorite asasina now I
have a hot charred Tower of it in front
of me this is amazing it’s honestly so
much better than I expected to
be you got the burnt crispy
bits and the doughy bits I knew I’d like
the pasta Crispy Crunchy on the outside
and chewy inside and the spice I didn’t
anticipate the role the tomato sauce
would play it Cooks down to a sticky
sweet spicy paste which adds great
flavor and another contrasting texture
the asasina at guo is fantastic but I
don’t really have anything to compare it
to I need more of a frame of reference
so I continue my asasina crawl at a
restaurant called Shay Joe where I
discuss the dish with other diners I
think that the secret
is don’t boiled the spaghetti but this
man Vincenzo explains that there’s a big
debate in Bari about spaghetti alasas
some people boil the pasta a bit before
putting it in the pan with the sauce
just to soften it a little others put
raw dried pasta straight into the pan
with the sauce Vincenzo makes clear
which side he’s on no no boiled
spaghetti before don’t boil it inel I
don’t know what’s the meaning of a
padella pan pan yes so the spaghetti in
the spaghetti alasa I know normally you
want pasta al dente yes but for
spaghetti I feel like at guo the inside
of the pasta was not so alente it was a
little more soft yes which is good
because the outside is hard yes the same
yes so here I think the pasta was alente
it was cooked perfect perfeto for alente
but for assassina you don’t want alente
yes you you have you need two different
consisten consistency different textures
yes a soft hand half yes crispy so and
when you uh heat crispy crunch crunch
crunch is perfect yes this guy speaking
my language venzo even teaches me my new
favorite Italian word the word for
crunchy crocante it even sounds crunchy
as I leave Vincenzo asked me what hotel
I’m staying at he would later drop off a
copy of an Italian mystery novel called
spaghetti alasas in which a fictional
inventor of the dish is murdered it’s
the fifth in a series of books featuring
Bar’s most dogged detective inspector
Lolita labosco it’s in Italian so I’m
probably not going to read it but I love
it before I feel ready to recreate this
dish for my cookbook there’s one more
place I have to go good to see you again
my friend good to see you again I meet
up with Antonello deari who I first met
through pasta circles he runs a Pasta
Factory in Bari he agreed to show me
around I tell antell about my plans to
include spaghetti alasa Cina in my
cookbook exactly lot of people even in
Italy don’t know about it people must
know about
it yeah because it’s uh tasty it’s
crunchy and you can never stop eating it
antelo and I arrive at a restaurant
called Al sorso preferito the restaurant
where spaghetti alas Saina was invented
you know it’s rare that you can pinpoint
the time and place a pasta dish was born
as we heard from the food writer and
historian Luca cesari most pasta history
is the stuff of lore but asasina is one
of the few that we do have a documented
story from
know aloro preferito has white
tablecloths tile floors shiny wood
finishes and wine bottles on shelves
along the walls we’re going to meet a
chef who is one of the inventors of
spaghetti Al asasina but first we sit
down with another important figure in
the Dish’s story masimo Dela have lot of
titles among them I am president of the
Academia of the lasina president of the
Academy of the assassina you said you
have many titles masimo what are your
titles besides I am a
physicist I am an owner of a consultancy
firm on technology I am an expert of
gunshot residues gunshot
residues oh like forensics yes so you
have always had a fascination with
assassins and Killers yes masimo’s
Academy of the asasina started as a joke
he and some friends set out to taste the
dish the restaurants around Bari that
served it with a rigorous scoring system
that rated each version on crunch spice
and Char they published their results in
a Facebook group which quickly grew to
hundreds of members each of whom had a
different opinion about who Inari makes
the best asasina how crunchy and spicy
it should be and perhaps most
contentious of all whether the spaghetti
should be raw or partially boiled before
it’s fried in the pan with the sauce
along with the influence of social media
masimo’s Academy led to something
unexpected now there is not a restaurant
in bar
that don’t make the assassina if you
think that only 9 years ago this was a
dish made of by only three restaurants
and back then masimo says nobody in Bari
made the dish at home now he’s something
of a local celebrity it’s a strange that
when somebody that I don’t know meet me
ah you are the president of the
Academia I was all a big number of other
things
before but now
I I am known only for this with help
from masimo I’ve arranged to go into the
kitchen to watch them make the dish and
to meet chef and owner Petro lro this is
the inventor the
invent he’s 80 years old now short and
bald but full of energy he’s the only
one still at the restaurant who was here
when the dish was first invented around
196
Chef Petro explains that the chefs were
making spaghetti with tomatoes and Chili
Peppers a classic dish but they
accidentally burned it they were about
to throw it out and they decided instead
to eat it masimo translates this crunchy
was interesting was
good burning on the different level of
burning finally become the assassina so
when the chefs there realized they had
stumbled onto something they
experimented refined the technique
customers started asking for it more
spicy more crunchy Chef Petro tells me
when he eventually bought the restaurant
in 1974 he kept riffing on the dish he
added the technique of rotating the
pasta in the pan to charm more of it
which also further reduces the sauce
into that sticky tomato paste eventually
he settled on the spaghetti alasa Cena
he serves
today one of his Cooks begins making it
as he explains the process Mo looks on
and my friend ananello takes over
translating well that Garlic’s really
frying up once the garlic is when the
garlic is fried it’s fried it start to
add tomato sauce
right now contrary to what they do at
the restaurants I visited yesterday Chef
Petro does boil his spaghetti briefly
before he fries it in the pan but masimo
president of the academy is in the no
boil Camp so he starts debating the
question with Chef petro and the other
Cooks in the kitchen
what’s happening they are just
discussing on how to cook it because as
I told you before there are many
different ways to do it so as I
understand masimo is explaining that he
does not um cook it before he right
right he put he puts it in the pan
uncooked here they cook it a little bit
yeah what do the guys who invented
assassina think about masimo’s technique
uh it just said that uh it’s a way to do
it but it’s not the best way to do it so
they are discussing about right right
it’s so
funny the discussion grows more
heated the the older
manling that doing as masimo usually do
uh the result is going to be not the
same because the risk is that spaghetti
can uh can burn too much but uh I didn’t
add during cook the result is going to
be different at the end and masimo just
said okay you’re right but next time I
come here I’m going to cook it for you
just to show which is the
best I guess in Italian pasta culture
even the guy who invented a dish can be
accused of doing it wrong at this point
the pasta has been in the pan with the
sauce for 15 or 20 minutes right now
it’s starting to burn on the bottom so
now he’s really using the spatula to
like scrape the bottom of the pan the
spaghetti is starting to stick to the
pan which is good right it’s starting to
turn starting to get some black
bits is that
Pito oh my gosh the cooking may be
finished the argument
isn’t is just explaining how that you
don’t have to push uh so strongly with
the the spatula yeah because otherwise
you’re going to take off even this part
you get too much of the burn part yeah
that is bitter and it’s not good to eat
right so then they are still fighting on
this
right are they’re fighting over whether
or not to cook the pasta in advance or
they’re fighting over whether or not to
scrape the bottom of the pan just
they’re just fighting for
everything okay time to eat time to
eat all right we’re coming back out to
the dining room where our plates of
assassina are
waiting t yes we all take bites and chew
thoughtfully for a minute before
Antonello delivers his
verdict that’s good but it’s not my
favorite
one this way to make it maybe the
original way okay I not discuss but if
you are friendly with the Italian way to
e past now this are over
cooking the the the pieces that are not
burned are overcooked in your opinion
they’re too soft ant you agree yeah I
100% agree few people have uh
obtained results from Academia over
seven very few this is five five you
would rate this five out of 10
yes I have to say I feel the same as
masimo and Antonello as compared with
the Asa SE at Koto that first place I
went to this one just seems to have a
little less of everything less spice
less crunch less Char less sticky sweet
tomato paste and less of the Nutty pasta
flavor that pan frying it creates less
of everything I love about it I decide
that when I work on my own recipe for my
cookbook I’ll use the asasina from gioto
as my North Star that night I would
return to eat it there a second time to
sear it into my sense memory back at the
table with masimo and Antonello our
conversation turns to the future of SPH
Al
asasina as the asasina becomes more
popular and more known around Italy and
around the world it’s natural that also
it’s going to change maybe evolution new
people will bring new ideas how do you
feel about that this is normal in
cooking it’s normal in all the human
activities there is nothing that remain
equal
over the time nothing stays the same no
nothing is the same but you have to
remember which are the
origins they must survive together you
have not to
forgot the origin because if you forgot
the origin you have not uh point of
reference I agree and I’m confident the
people of Bari will preserve that point
of reference for spaghetti Al asasina at
the same time the inevitable evolution
is already happening in just the last
few years restaurants in the city have
created new versions of the dish one
with broccoli Rob instead of tomato
sauce another topped with a dollop of
strella cheese the creamy spreadable
insides of a ball of barata so spaghetti
alasa Cena is a perfect example of how
even in Italian cuisine people continue
to come up with new ideas just as people
and kitchens have always done
I come away from my time in Italy with a
very different perspective on pasta
culture and my place in it I started out
thinking of my book as an attempt to
shake up a Cuisine that might have been
too stuck in its ways now I see my book
as a contribution to the ongoing and
NeverEnding evolution of
[Music]
pasta coming up next week in episode
three of anything’s possible I return
home full of inspiration I just think
this is a good idea this is going to be
really delicious
and can’t wait to try it and run smack
into the reality of having to turn that
inspiration into workable recipes feel I
got accomplish nothing then later the
book enters the design phase and I
agonize over the cover with input from
Janie and the kids I hate it I actually
hate oh my God why special thanks to
Katie paror for showing me around Rome
and schooling me on Italian History her
most recent cookbook is food of the
Italian Islands the sporf is produced by
me along with managing produc produc
Emma Morgan Stern senior producer Andre
O’Hara our editors on this series are
Tracy Samuelson and Nora Richie with
editorial help from T weather spoon and
Julia Russo our audio engineer is Jared
oconnell original theme music by Andrea
Christ additional music help from Black
Label music the spork is a production of
Stitcher Studios our executive producers
are Colin Anderson and Nora Richie until
next time I’m Dan pashman and I’m Crosby
from Columbus Ohio reminding you to eat
more eat better and eat more better
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]